If NFL is A level athleticism

MMA's HW goat.

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Maybe don't worry about physique, Arthur Jones is very athletic for his size and has a wrestling background.

He’s clinically obese. That is a fact.

My entire point about that fat slob is that his brother (you know the all time great fighter), could beat him in a fight. Do you disagree?
 
Damn you really wrote a novel here. Here they talk about who is more athletic straight from the horses mouth, as they say in America. Doesn't seem clear cut.


Interesting that he also said MMA training (and let’s be honest, it isn’t real MMA fight training), got him in the best shape of his life. I’ve seen rugby players say the same thing about boxing/MMA.

Who would’ve thought fighting is more physically demanding than ball sports?

<TheWire1>
 
Damn you really wrote a novel here. Here they talk about who is more athletic straight from the horses mouth, as they say in America. Doesn't seem clear cut.


Strength, speed, explosiveness, a lot of attributes in athleticism can be measured. That is why athletes do races (lowest time/max speed), Max weight lifting, vertical leaps height, etc. Because we can see athleticism. We can also see the accomplishments of athletes. For example, Arthur was undefeated 2 time state champion in high school. While Jon Jones lost to Matt Riddle in high school wrestling.
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Arthur was heavily recruited by Universities and went Syracuse State university while Jon Jones wrestled at community college. I know it is hard to accept that the runt and least athletic guy in the Jones family is dominating MMA but that is what is happening.
 
Strength, speed, explosiveness, a lot of attributes in athleticism can be measured. That is why athletes do races (lowest time/max speed), Max weight lifting, vertical leaps height, etc. Because we can see athleticism. We can also see the accomplishments of athletes. For example, Arthur was undefeated 2 time state champion in high school. While Jon Jones lost to Matt Riddle in high school wrestling.
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Arthur was heavily recruited by Universities and went Syracuse State university while Jon Jones wrestled at community college. I know it is hard to accept that the runt and least athletic guy in the Jones family is dominating MMA but that is what is happening.
So you are just gonna conveniently disregard what they themselves stated? And you ever heard about the concept of a late bloomer?
 
So you are just gonna conveniently disregard what they themselves stated? And you ever heard about the concept of a late bloomer?

I heard what they said, Art Said Chandler or Jon is the best. Jon said Chandler or Art is the best. So what can we really extrapolate.

If what they are saying is really that important to you, Jon has also said he has never been able to beat his big brother, his brother Art is a better wrestler than him, and that his big brother would beat the Heavyweight champion at the time, Cain Velasquez.

http://en.espn.co.uk/ufc/sport/story/85210.html
 
I heard what they said, Art Said Chandler or Jon is the best. Jon said Chandler or Art is the best. So what can we really extrapolate.

If what they are saying is really that important to you, Jon has also said he has never been able to beat his big brother, his brother Art is a better wrestler than him, and that his big brother would beat the Heavyweight champion at the time, Cain Velasquez.

http://en.espn.co.uk/ufc/sport/story/85210.html
It isn't that important what they say to me. They are brothers so they are either gonna jokingly trash each other or blow each others tires. But you can tell by that interview that they consider each other pretty even athleticly. And I believe you used their words to infer that his brothers would beat him in a fight. Which seems absolutly ridicolous to me.
 
I heard what they said, Art Said Chandler or Jon is the best. Jon said Chandler or Art is the best. So what can we really extrapolate.

If what they are saying is really that important to you, Jon has also said he has never been able to beat his big brother, his brother Art is a better wrestler than him, and that his big brother would beat the Heavyweight champion at the time, Cain Velasquez.

http://en.espn.co.uk/ufc/sport/story/85210.html

Jon’s exact quote is “I would say Chandler.
I would say Chandler”. He then goes on to talk about both Arthur’s and Chandler’s careers.

Athleticism =/= Fighting ability. If it did, a guy like Ronaldo would have a legit claim of being the middleweight GOAT.

You’ve consistently dodged the same question. Who do YOU think would win in a fight. Jon Jones, or Arthur Jones?
 
I appreciate the sarcastic tone as much as anyone, but I’m not trying to be condescending when I say I’m can’t be arsed reading it.

It might be a brilliant post, I simply don’t care enough to read it.

My point is a simple one - using someone’s ability to slam dunk a basketball as a measure of their vertical leap (or more broadly athletic ability) is a poor one as it disadvantages this who haven’t played basketball.

Like I said, it is OK with me if you concede.

I was responding to a lot of what you said yesterday that I didn't respond to at the time they were made. So it was a large post. I can't sit here a respond the each one the whole day and I did waste a lot of time responding already.

If you don't want to debate the points I've made in that post, I'll accept the white flag. You'd learn something about what we mean when we say "athletes" here if you had read the post and watched the videos.

I just don't see the logic in saying a couple paragraphs is too much for you to read yet you can debate me and everyone else for hours. It sounds more to me like you can't rebut the points being made. Either way, i'll accept your concession on the subject. I'm bout to take off so I'll respond to any future posts at a later time.
 
No it’s not. It’s real football, and boxing. If you’re good enough to make it to the top of either of those sports, you’re very likely to out-earn anyone in US sports.
Cmon....
 
It isn't that important what they say to me. They are brothers so they are either gonna jokingly trash each other or blow each others tires. But you can tell by that interview that they consider each other pretty even athleticly. And I believe you used their words to infer that his brothers would beat him in a fight. Which seems absolutly ridicolous to me.

Funny how that works isn't it. Now what Jon says is no longer convenient is it.
 
Meanwhile, in the rest of the world, sports are global. If an American athlete was good enough to get to the top of real football, and they were purely drawn to the money, that’s exactly where they would go. In fact by your own logic that’s exactly where they should go. They would make a shit tonne more cash and have much higher global recognition and star power.
They see the top US sports. And they see global stats and lots of money. Lebron is a global superstar. To get good enough at soccer you need to play a shit ton of soccer. And in the US, other sports are simply a lot more popular. They are drawn to what they see and they see lebron and Brady and Jackson and trout and hundreds of millions of dollars.

there’s certainly more than just maximum salary (it’s silly to use boxing as a reference as very few make it to the top of the earnings and there will be years where no one is at the top.) and local infrastructure and influences matter a lot. But it is very much a fact that in the US people generally play baseball basketball and football and if they have potential they focus their energy where they have the most potential and earning power.
 
Funny how that works isn't it. Now what Jon says is no longer convenient is it.
Then what the hell is your point then of using what they say as an argument when they themselves say they are about equal in athleticism? Obviously Jon Jones isn't the runt of the family which you are trying to portray him as.
 
Jon’s exact quote is “I would say Chandler.
I would say Chandler”. He then goes on to talk about both Arthur’s and Chandler’s careers.

Athleticism =/= Fighting ability. If it did, a guy like Ronaldo would have a legit claim of being the middleweight GOAT.

You’ve consistently dodged the same question. Who do YOU think would win in a fight. Jon Jones, or Arthur Jones?

Watch the video again, he clearly states that Art could actually be the best.

Nobody said athleticism = Fighting ability. What I have consistently said was Jon's brother were better athletes and Jon big brother was a better wrestler. I've said that technique and skills can be taught while athleticism cannot and that is the advantage a great athlete has.

I didn't dodge your question, I simply chose not to answer it because you already conceded to me. So there is no point debating you. If you would like to continue debating with me, you can read my post and learn something, maybe even respond to what you disagree with. Then I will gladly respond to back to you and tell you who I think wins between Arthur and Jon. I have to stop talking to you now, this paragraph is getting longer.
 
Watch the video again, he clearly states that Art could actually be the best.

Nobody said athleticism = Fighting ability. What I have consistently said was Jon's brother were better athletes and Jon big brother was a better wrestler. I've said that technique and skills can be taught while athleticism cannot and that is the advantage a great athlete has.

I didn't dodge your question, I simply chose not to answer it because you already conceded to me. So there is no point debating you. If you would like to continue debating with me, you can read my post and learn something, maybe even respond to what you disagree with. Then I will gladly respond to back to you and tell you who I think wins between Arthur and Jon. I have to stop talking to you now, this paragraph is getting longer.
I can be as good as Jimi Hendrix at guitar, technique and skills can be taught. I can be as good at physics as Albert Einstein, knowledge can be taught. etc etc. Do you see the flaw?
 
Then what the hell is your point then of using what they say as an argument when they themselves say they are about equal in athleticism? Obviously Jon Jones isn't the runt of the family which you are trying to portray him as.

Jon is the runt. He is the smallest and he is the weakest of the family. Maybe go look up what "runt" means.
 
It wasn't a video per se but the data or KPH they were able to determine for Arjen Robben speed came from Data collected by examining video footage of him. So the point remains the example you provided to measure the speed of soccer/futball players came from clips of soccer players dribbling down field.


So on one hand, you're telling me dunking/dribbling isn't a good way to measure athletic ability as you did in this post.



On the other hand, the examples of speed you are providing of Soccer/futball players dribbling downfield as you did in this post



But with that said, our definition of athletes is conflicted with yours. That is why there is a misunderstanding when you say dunking isn't a good measure for athlete's vertical. Because here, most athletes play multiple sports growing up, it is a matter of choosing one for a profession. Guys in the NFL/NBA more like played both sports growing up as well as multiple sports such as wrestling, track and field, baseball etc. That's what athletes here do. So when we say "Athlete" we say it in terms of that person can excel in almost any sport they dedicate themselves to.

So when you say an athlete from another sport would be a fish out of water dunking, that doesn't compute with us. The majority of the guys in the NFL can dunk because the majority of athletes here compete in multiple sports growing up. Even the fat boys you guys like to make front of so much and short 5'8 manlet slot wide receivers like Cole Beasley.





Jon Jones is considered the runt of the family because that is what he is. He was the least athletic of his brothers and the least recruited as an athlete. The whole point about Jon's inability to dunk has nothing to do with dunking and everything to do with gauging his vertical which is a measure of his explosive power output. The kind of output that allows wrestlers like GSP to have such an explosive double. If holding the ball is still an issue for you, Jon jumped an attempted to touch the rim without the ball before attempted to dunk. It is clear that he doesn't have much of a vertical and not very explosive. But Jon was wearing jeans and was casually hanging out not in competitive mode so I will cut him some slack and say we still haven't seen his max vert. His younger brother however could dunk in high school. He played multiple sports. Chandler's combine results showed he has a 35 inch vertical, very explosive for a man with his height and weight. 6'5 265 pounds and a 35 inch vert.
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So Chandler Jones is taller than Jon, weighs more than Jon, stronger than Jon, has a better reach than Jon, he is more explosive, and he has shown an ability to excel in multiple sports. So here, Chandler is considered more athletic. In terms of MMA, what Jon has over chandler is skill and technique. Both of which can be taught. After the skill gap closes, other attributes come into play. Like athleticism, something which cannot be taught.

As for Arthur Jones, he was an undefeated wrestler in high school unlike Jon. He was a better wrestler growing up Arthur is a two-time New York state HS champion in wrestling. He chose football over wrestling, which is often the case here. Here are some very outdated lists of NFL athletes with wrestling backgrounds.
http://www.sectiononewrestling.com/documents/nfl_players_wrestled.html
https://uselitecombat.com/hey-coach-arent-football-players-wrestling-nfl-players-wrestled/
As you can see, there are a bunch of wrestling champions in the NFL. As I said, I can't speak for other countries, but the athletes here go where the money is. All these wrestling champions chose the NFL.

I know everyone likes to make front of Arthur's weight but just remember that Gut Fedor is the HW Goat of MMA. Gut DC is the former HW champion. Tim Sylvia is one of the most successful HW champions in UFC history. Miocic is the current UFC champion and he comes from Baseball. So history has shown us a fat guys can become a champion in the UFC and so can a ball sport athlete like Miocic. As for conditioning, Brock Lesnar who doesn't have the best conditioning and he was Champion. Ironically, all these muscle bound guys are who we see gassing most often, not the fat boys. You can have a gut and still be well conditioned and very athletic for you size. & If you are a dominant wrestler, you can control the fight even against better conditioned fighters. Kind of like how Nick Diaz has triathlete level conditioning but many of the WW wrestlers could still hold him down for 5 rounds.

Now with all that said, saying Jon's brothers are more athletic than him doesn't mean Jon isn't athletic in his own right. He is still one of the more athletic guys in MMA. Jon is an anomaly for the sport, you don't see guys with that kind of frame (Height/reach) with such dominant wrestling, in that regard, he is very athletic. Usually the taller guys lack wrestling and are weaker in terms of Grappling and that is how they are exploited. That is how Fedor beat Semmy closed the distance and exploited the Semmy's grappling weakness. In Jon's case, he is arguably the strongest wrestler and the better grappler as well. That gives him a huge advantage, in the standup he has the range advantage and pick you apart from the outside. So you have to close the distance to even damage him. When you do get in close on him, you are in grappling territory where Jon is also better as wrestling is his biggest strength. He is very durable as shown from the 1st Gus fight and the shots he took from DC. From a strategic standpoint, that is why Jon is so hard to beat.

Roy Jones Jr didn’t stand out at all as an athlete on a development basketball league team. But he was the best “athlete” among them all. By far. It just didn’t show up on a basketball court. Charlie Ward was a below average athlete in the nba by traditional measures but very few basketball players could win a heisman trophy in football. Drew Brees isn’t the definition of an A level athlete but he’s a fuckin spectacular overall athlete, just not measured the same way. Chandler and Arthur were bigger and heavier and that makes them better prospects at football where at some positions size is table stakes.
 
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