If Lomachenko retired today, would he make the Hall of Fame?

[KillerIsBack V2]

Ofc, TS.
He wont even need to come to the ceremony.
He can just download the spot.
You know, like he downloads stuff in the ring.
I wish I was that high-tech.

 

[Sanserif]

I agree he started too late but not properly managed? I think not having the rematch clause with Lopez and you could argue Salido were mistakes but how else do you think he was mismanaged? He didn't get the big fights that he wanted but that just seemed to be a lot of people ducking him. He got ducked at 130 by quite a few so he moved to 135. Then Mikey Garcia arguably ducked him at 135 robbing him of that big fight. Then he went chasing Lopez by taking on his old opponents but that dead ended when Lopez lost to George, not that I think Lopez would have given him another shot. I'm not sure what other fights he could have got. Tank didn't want to fight him, and Kambosos is looking for an opponent but doesn't seem to want Loma. Garcia seems to be ducking fights and has never mentioned Loma. Haney is a possibility though.

Garcia has recently mentioned him and called lomachenko the best lightweight in the world.

 

[Sanserif]

Lomachenko's place in the hal of fame is assured based on his 2 Olympic gold medals and amateur record that's likely the best of all time, as well as being a world champion in three weight divisions and holding 3 belts in them lightweight division that's 2 weight classes higher than his normal one.

if he is to retire today, the dominance over almost all his opponents he has already displayed will be a part of boxing lore - no boxer or even prizefighter of any martial sport in history AFAIK has ever forced four consecutive opponents (including Rigondeaux also a 2 time gold medallist & possible Hall of famer) to quit on their stools in mid match. The compubox stats he displayed against just his last opponent at 33, commey a former world champion, were better than the average stats shown by mayweather Jr during his career - and mayweather Jr has the best compubox stats since they started recording of all time so far. He has only ever been knocked down once in any fight in his career and never been knocked out despite most of his opponents being bigger, taller, stronger, heavier and having longer reach rhan him.

As well, his style of fighting and mastery of that style also distinguishes him - usyk fights the same way due to them having the same coach. Lomachenko Sr is definitely a avid student of the greats in boxing as his son's style combines the triangle footwork and spinning and grappling techniques of Willie pep (who usd it defensively) with the southpaw stance of pacquaio with the pendulum bounce stepping that the likes of Muhammad Ali used in different ways with the swarming and constant aggression and non stop pace and stamina of Henry Armstrong. The lomachenko/usyk style will create a new approach for future boxers to reference along with the styles of other HoF boxers.

As for whether he is an all time great, usually sufficiently time needs to pass before boxing observers can make a fair assessment. We are still too close to the present time and therefore are subject to the biases and prejudices of the present time whether for or against.

 

[Sanserif]

Ofc, TS.
He wont even need to come to the ceremony.
He can just download the spot.
You know, like he downloads stuff in the ring.
I wish I was that high-tech.

No need to get sarcastically worked over a phrase that some boxing commentators like to use and that AFAIK hedoesnt use himself. Lomachenko uses the same figuring out his opponent approach during the first round especially that most pro boxers and nak muay use anyway so almost all experienced prizefighters also "download".

 

[Sanserif]

It would depend on who else was on the ballot.
His all time resume will be severely lacking unless he racks up a few good wins in his next few fights.
I mean, really, his list of accomplishments in the OP is basically having a promoter who got him a title fight he didn't earn and then another after losing that one.

Yeah we know about your bias against him and other East European boxers but diminishing his achievements and attributing it purely to his promoter and accusing him of cherry picking and padding his fights, is particularly wrong and unfair. It's funny how u give nayweather Jr and davis a free pass on this despite the fact their record is completely padded with cherry picking.

As for lomachenko, sure he was given an early chance at the title but there have been other boxers who were given very early chances based on their superlative amateur records or even their pro record in other martial sports (eg muay thai). There is no doubt lomachemko has the best amateur record of all time and already fought almost 300 fights so he deserved special consideration. Let's not forget that lomachemko still had to win those fights against difficult and dangerous opponents so giving him the title chance isn't going to do him any favors if he doesn't have the quality to beat those guys.

Yes he lost the fight against salido who came in grossly over the weight and then proceeded to use illegal tactics throughout the fight including a record number of low blows without being penalised by the referree and the judges. But u fail to mention any of that and talk as if salido didn't win by fighting not only dirty but illegally. Salido never agreed to rematch lomachenko and to this day its probably the biggest thing he can boast about his career. (Just like lopez - the sign that lomachenko is a great boxer is thta lopez' victory over over will likely be the best thing he will evrr do in his career)

Lomachenko never complained of the unfairness and he learned form that experience and became skilled in the dark arts himself in how to defend himself against them. That is the mark of a champion which u again fail to even acknowledge.

As for the fight selection in his pro career, I fail to understand bow he can be accused of cherry picking. All his fights have been against the opponents directly standing between him and the titles he wanted to win. He has never ducked a single fight. As soon as lopez won his belt ftom commey, he wanted to fight him to get his belt to unify all the belts and he was reportedly willing to even accept a pay cut to make the fight happen.
After he lost his belts to lopez he has has trying to get a rematch ever since and he fought nakatani and commey purely because they had fought lopez to show that he is still the man to beat in the light weight division and deserves the re match.

Contrast that with Davis whose promoter has ever said he will not fight lomachenko yet a few years ago. Or lopez who adamantly refused to give lomachenko purely because of the spurious made up reason that there was no rematch clause and even after he lost the belts to kambosos, he would rather vacate the division than to fight his way back to kambosos - which would require a rematch with lomachenko.

 

[Zanderlini]

Is this a joke? Of course he would... His amateur resume alone is enough him to get him there.

Yeah I don't know why people even entertain the idea why he wouldn't, even his pro resume is enough to land him in the hall of fame, let alone his ammy one.

 

[biomed190]

He probably does get in but I'd like to see some other guys like Pongsaklek Wonjongkam, Tim Bradley and Cotto before him.

 

[CastletonSnob]

Yeah we know about your bias against him and other East European boxers but diminishing his achievements and attributing it purely to his promoter and accusing him of cherry picking and padding his fights, is particularly wrong and unfair. It's funny how u give nayweather Jr and davis a free pass on this despite the fact their record is completely padded with cherry picking.

As for lomachenko, sure he was given an early chance at the title but there have been other boxers who were given very early chances based on their superlative amateur records or even their pro record in other martial sports (eg muay thai). There is no doubt lomachemko has the best amateur record of all time and already fought almost 300 fights so he deserved special consideration. Let's not forget that lomachemko still had to win those fights against difficult and dangerous opponents so giving him the title chance isn't going to do him any favors if he doesn't have the quality to beat those guys.

Yes he lost the fight against salido who came in grossly over the weight and then proceeded to use illegal tactics throughout the fight including a record number of low blows without being penalised by the referree and the judges. But u fail to mention any of that and talk as if salido didn't win by fighting not only dirty but illegally. Salido never agreed to rematch lomachenko and to this day its probably the biggest thing he can boast about his career. (Just like lopez - the sign that lomachenko is a great boxer is thta lopez' victory over over will likely be the best thing he will evrr do in his career)

Lomachenko never complained of the unfairness and he learned form that experience and became skilled in the dark arts himself in how to defend himself against them. That is the mark of a champion which u again fail to even acknowledge.

As for the fight selection in his pro career, I fail to understand bow he can be accused of cherry picking. All his fights have been against the opponents directly standing between him and the titles he wanted to win. He has never ducked a single fight. As soon as lopez won his belt ftom commey, he wanted to fight him to get his belt to unify all the belts and he was reportedly willing to even accept a pay cut to make the fight happen.
After he lost his belts to lopez he has has trying to get a rematch ever since and he fought nakatani and commey purely because they had fought lopez to show that he is still the man to beat in the light weight division and deserves the re match.

Contrast that with Davis whose promoter has ever said he will not fight lomachenko yet a few years ago. Or lopez who adamantly refused to give lomachenko purely because of the spurious made up reason that there was no rematch clause and even after he lost the belts to kambosos, he would rather vacate the division than to fight his way back to kambosos - which would require a rematch with lomachenko.

Not only did Lomachenko fight Nakatani, he beat him more impressively than Lopez did.

 

[Boxiana]

Why are amateur credentials considered especially when he essentially abused the system by fighting so long with such an experience and age advantage over his competitors?

This is an interesting point.

Looking at his boxrec amateur record, in his last year as an amateur he had 6 fights against guys with a combined 153-50 record, including one guy with a 0-1 record and another with 1-2.

https://boxrec.com/en/amateurboxer/659771

 

[JayE]

This is an interesting point.

Looking at his boxrec amateur record, in his last year as an amateur he had 6 fights against guys with a combined 153-50 record, including one guy with a 0-1 record and another with 1-2.

https://boxrec.com/en/amateurboxer/659771

Just a note that boxrec's amateur database isn't that extensive.

 

[SandisLL]

Just a note that boxrec's amateur database isn't that extensive.

Sure.
Boxrec operates with records submitted by boxer's managers etc ppl.
BTW, it isn't good to submit all boxer's am fights there: then to get next pro opponent for boxer will be more expensive. They will not buy tale : am means nothing.

For example one boxer my friend does have, on boxrec does have approx 11 am bouts.
His am record confirmed by AIBA is 123 am fights.

There also for notable boxers not all am bouts are listed.
The same Foreman, Frazier etc and etc.

In US a lot of ppl are thinking: if it is am, then you don't know what you are doing.
While in some countries these " amateurs " were amateurs just on paper.
Amateur<45> ice hockey players, who immediately get in NHL etc alike beauties.

Since boxrec is widely used for matchmaking in pro boxing, they does care only about pro bouts in pro boxing.

Pro Kickboxing and MT records in boxrec too are incomplete.

 

[SandisLL]

About Papp it is interesting, amazing story.
Papp initially had damn very high KO/TKO % for am ranks. Later, when he get first problems with hands, this percentage had dropped.
Papp get his 3 rd Olympic Gold medal when his hands already heavily su****d.

Hungarian socialists assumed, that he is too old to get 4 th Olympic medal and didn't cared anymore.

Most interesting thing is, that pro boxing in socialist Hungary then wasn't banned.
It just didn't had existed cos they did not sanctioned pro sport events. Not only in boxing, even soccer etc too. All sport : am on paper.

When Papp traveled to Austria and boxed professionally, initially Hungarian socialists didn't cared: if he earns money, Hungary gets money ( personal income tax!).

Later Hungarian socialists most likely had get some pressure from their partner countries and more communistic ppl in their government: pro sport is bad thing, all athletes are amateurs.

Then they just simply did not had prolonged Papp's " foreign passport "( it is like exit visa ) : stuff ppl should have to travel aboard.

This is reason why Papp retired as pro boxer.
Later they gave him this again but then he was older and ring rusty.

 

[aries]

Garcia has recently mentioned him and called lomachenko the best lightweight in the world.

Yeah I saw that but he's not calling out Loma like he has to everyone else. Seems quite respectful actually.

 

[SandisLL]

King Ry?
I now think that he isn't bad lad. He is a bit cocky, anyway: he behaved pretty respectful before and after fight vs Campbell.
Yeah, he get dropped and exactly this raised his credentials in my eyes: guy get up and did all the best in his abilities to deliver, to continue to fight smoothly.
It is boxing, guy dropped is not unusual thing in boxing.

Anyway, Campbell was really solid top 10 boxer in division with approx 2000 boxers.
He went all distance vs Linares and all distance vs Loma's younger and more fresh version.
& he is pretty large for 135lbs division. Loma is enough large for 126 lbs and maybe 130 lbs division, for 135 lbs division he is too small without any doubts.

 

[SandisLL]

Maybe this will be interesting: 1945-1992 period socialist countries had one not well known disciplinary and repression tool: easy to apply with 0 effort.
This so called " exit visa ": foreign passport.
It was with short term and should had been prolonged again and again.
0 court or ban is necessary: just not to prolong this for next term. Unlike with courts and bans, also 0 chances to get any explanation why.
Outcome: you aren't allowed to leave this country.

 

[Sanserif]

Yeah I saw that but he's not calling out Loma like he has to everyone else. Seems quite respectful actually.

Not surprising if so since he is presently ill equipped to beat him...

 

[Sanserif]

Why are amateur credentials considered especially when he essentially abused the system by fighting so long with such an experience and age advantage over his competitors?

it isn't accurate to suggest that he padded his record by staying amateur for an unnaturally long time and so he faced younger and less experienced boxers often. Even in his first Olympics, he dominated all his opponents and won by huge points margins for every match. Whether when he was younger or not, he was usually much better than all his opponents. So he did not need to fight against younger boxers to keep winning.

He has explained why he stayed amateur after his first gold medal in one interview as I recall. He wanted to win rhe second gold medal. Since he decided to try to win that second gold medal, of course he could not become professional and therefore he had to keep fighting amateur boxers to continue to gain experience and skill. One benefit was that he could fight many more times a year as an amateur compared to if he were a pro boxer. Once he won his second medal, he turned pro soon after.

Therefore your insinuation thar he intentionally stayed amateur to pad his record by fighting inexperienced boxers doesn't seem fair. Was selimov - the only amateur boxer to beat him - also abusing thr system? He fought 253 times...

On the other for the multiple gold medallists, papp had 3 gold medals and 1 bronze and he fought 312 times while rigondeaux who is a 2 time Olympic gold medalist, fought 386 times. As for the 3 time Olympic gold medallists, Savon had 383 amateur bouts while Teofilo Stevenson fought 332 times as an amateur. By staying amateur over a long time in order to remain qualified for the Olympics, they would have inevitably racked up huge numbers of fights. Did they also abuse the system to pad their records?! Obviously not. To an amateur, the olympics is the apex of achievement - lomachenko has stated he considers his 2 gold medals to be his greatest achievement and to achieve the 2 medals was to make a mark for Ukraine.

The other thing to bear in mind is that by being able to fight competitively so many times, all those amateur boxers were enabled to fine tune and internalise their boxing systems under stress and pressure of real competition rather than a no stakes sparring match. Especially for lomachenko, his system required him to interrogate his opponents with various fainted and real attack vectors in order to evoke reactions that he would then instinctively capitalise on. Those were trained responses that his central nervous system became more and more trained to do better and faster. No doubt all those amateur bouts has helped lomachenko become the pro boxer whom he is today.

 

[Boxiana]

Just a note that boxrec's amateur database isn't that extensive.

yeah, there are less than 100 amateur bouts listed, but 2013 was when he turned pro, and 6 amateur fights in that year seems reasonable

 

[JSN]

About Papp it is interesting, amazing story.
Papp initially had damn very high KO/TKO % for am ranks. Later, when he get first problems with hands, this percentage had dropped.
Papp get his 3 rd Olympic Gold medal when his hands already heavily su****d.

Hungarian socialists assumed, that he is too old to get 4 th Olympic medal and didn't cared anymore.

Most interesting thing is, that pro boxing in socialist Hungary then wasn't banned.
It just didn't had existed cos they did not sanctioned pro sport events. Not only in boxing, even soccer etc too. All sport : am on paper.

When Papp traveled to Austria and boxed professionally, initially Hungarian socialists didn't cared: if he earns money, Hungary gets money ( personal income tax!).

Later Hungarian socialists most likely had get some pressure from their partner countries and more communistic ppl in their government: pro sport is bad thing, all athletes are amateurs.

Then they just simply did not had prolonged Papp's " foreign passport "( it is like exit visa ) : stuff ppl should have to travel aboard.

This is reason why Papp retired as pro boxer.
Later they gave him this again but then he was older and ring rusty.

Interesting. Is Hungary where you are from?

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

About Papp it is interesting, amazing story.
Papp initially had damn very high KO/TKO % for am ranks. Later, when he get first problems with hands, this percentage had dropped.
Papp get his 3 rd Olympic Gold medal when his hands already heavily su****d.

Hungarian socialists assumed, that he is too old to get 4 th Olympic medal and didn't cared anymore.

Most interesting thing is, that pro boxing in socialist Hungary then wasn't banned.
It just didn't had existed cos they did not sanctioned pro sport events. Not only in boxing, even soccer etc too. All sport : am on paper.

When Papp traveled to Austria and boxed professionally, initially Hungarian socialists didn't cared: if he earns money, Hungary gets money ( personal income tax!).

Later Hungarian socialists most likely had get some pressure from their partner countries and more communistic ppl in their government: pro sport is bad thing, all athletes are amateurs.

Then they just simply did not had prolonged Papp's " foreign passport "( it is like exit visa ) : stuff ppl should have to travel aboard.

This is reason why Papp retired as pro boxer.
Later they gave him this again but then he was older and ring rusty.

yeah it’s funny you bring that up. i have never been too familiar with papp. i have only seen highlights but i always thought “hmmm looks like that guy hits deceptively hard” then this thread inspired me to look up his amateur record. dude had a SHITLOAD of knockouts.

he’s a great what-if story