If free will doesn't exist...

[Alcibiades007]

so even a formless art relative like Jazz?

Yes. Jazz is the product of thought process, which whatever is up to, it still is the same thing. Reactions at neuronal level.

 

[Rusk]

TS listen, Sam Harris is a sub-human retard and the worst philosopher of all times, pleases stop listening to him, it will improve your thread quality, i am sure of it.

 

[Khabibs Tiramisu]

TS listen, Sam Harris is a sub-human retard and the worst philosopher of all times, pleases stop listening to him, it will improve your thread quality, i am sure of it.

Not sure if you're serious, but Sam Harris has been ardently opposing radical Islam for a long time. You might not agree with all his views but he serves a pretty important role in society.

 

[Rusk]

Not sure if you're serious, but Sam Harris has been ardently opposing radical Islam for a long time. You might not agree with all his views but he serves a pretty important role in society.

low hanging fruit, if someone needs Sam Harris to understand that radical islam is bad then the human race is done

 

[Khabibs Tiramisu]

low hanging fruit, if someone needs Sam Harris to understand that radical islam is bad then the human race is done

It's not about knowing whether radical islam is bad, but going out there in the open announcing to everyone that you oppose a bunch of radicals who have terrorized different parts of the world is pretty ballsy. A lot of people are pretty afraid of criticizing islam but Sam has stated in public that this religion is a mother load of bad ideas and has been doing his part to make the world a better place. He's also criticized radical fundamentalists of other religions as well which again puts him in even more danger.

And if he's such a "sub-human retard and the worst philosopher of all times", I'm assuming that you can debate him and be confident that you'd win?

 

[Sous-la-pluie]

sam Harris is bad. it's like being a fan of football but following only h.s.; he rewrites wiki pages whilst using a thesaurus.

 

[Khabibs Tiramisu]

sam Harris is bad. it's like being a fan of football but following only h.s.; he rewrites wiki pages whilst using a thesaurus.

I wouldn't call someone, whom a lot of people agree bested the likes of Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson and a lot of religious nutjobs in a debate "bad". But to each his own i guess.

 

[Mike]

That tendency can be minimized through reason though.

Sure but there's just a lot of underlying stuff that we have limited control over. I agree you can mitigate it to a degree through logic.

Nah Mike is right here bro, if I throw a rock at you and you duck, then we were able to rewind time and observe the same scene without changing it at all, the same thing wiuld happen. You'd choose to duck, because all the data would be the same.

Same in=same out=no room for free will to exist.

Good example as that reaction is pure reflex, like much of our decision making process. There's no decision to avoid danger, that's already programmed into us by genetics.

 

[minute bull]

I made a thread about sisters having romantic relationships and for some reason(probably the trolling replies) it was deleted.

 

[Mike]

all that is irrelevant, unless you are in a situation where you have NO CHOICE, then there is some aspect of free will involved.

Even when say dodging an object thrown at you by an outside force, you can dodge left, right, up, or down.....Sure, reaction time, genetics, reflexes all play in as well as previous experiences and your observations from those. But a CHOICE is still made regardless

The spectrum of choices you have available is down to your genetics and upbringing though. Saying free will doesn't exist isn't saying we're robots that don't make choices. Rather that the range of choices available are predetermined

 

[Rusk]

And if he's such a "sub-human retard and the worst philosopher of all times", I'm assuming that you can debate him and be confident that you'd win?

he is arguing that his view is pre-determined yet it is true... he already lost

 

[Alcibiades007]

TS listen, Sam Harris is a sub-human retard and the worst philosopher of all times, pleases stop listening to him, it will improve your thread quality, i am sure of it.

Yeah, he is massively overrated but the knowledge of no free will predates Sam Harris He just formulated some nifty ways to make some people who don't understand the basic science behind it get it. Hence I hope you were just arguing against Sam and not for free will.

 

[Alcibiades007]

he is arguing that his view is pre-determined yet it is true... he already lost

And you call him retarded... He always understood the random occurrences in the context of quantum superposition. Which is to say that determinism would be 100% if not for sometimes a dice being thrown at subatomic level.

So from the only 3 possible outcomes: 1.everything set in stone(determinism) 2.sometimes a dice is thrown and something random occurs(quantum superposition) and 3 (you are in control of what happens and can change the flow of the universe). The 3 is the only one which is not possible.

 

[Phlog]

then how do people create new artforms like a musical composition?

using previous experiences has no bearing on creating notes/symphonies and melodies that have never been created before. How is there possibly no CHOICE involved in that?

I promise i'm not trying to condescend, but understand this line of reasoning. I agree it plays a huge part, I just don't think it's entirely all of it.
edit: Like I get that personal experience and training will allow someone to know what an F5 note is, but when they are combining different notes, instruments, chords, etc... to make a new composition, how is that not almost entirely choice? they have to choose which progression of things to arrange, right?

There is absolutely nothing special about a decision to add a snare drum beat. It is the same as deciding what to have for lunch. The decision is made as a result of the experience of the person and their genetic predispositions.

You are a physical entity, your a machine, there is no driver or programmer sitting outside of reality telling the machine to go this way or that way.

The most you can ever say is that you feel like you make choices.



For free will to exist things have to be able to go one way or another. There is no novel information, it's all just a complex equation, the same answer comes out every time.



Independent of there logically being no place for free will, we can detect your decisions before you're consciously aware of them, by up to 7 seconds. This shows you're not consciously even in command of your predetermined decisions.

So you see there is no place for it to exist. You are a complex rock bouncing down the hillside of existence and your path is determined by factors already decided, friction, gravity, interactions with other rocks etc .

 

[Alcibiades007]

There is absolutely nothing special about a decision to add a snare drum beat. It is the same as deciding what to have for lunch. The decision is made as a result of the experience of the person and their genetic predispositions.

You are a physical entity, your a machine, there is no driver or programmer sitting outside of reality telling the machine to go this way or that way.

The most you can ever say is that you feel like you make choices.



For free will to exist things have to be able to go one way or another. There is no novel information, it's all just a complex equation, the same answer comes out every time.



Independent of there logically being no place for free will, we can detect your decisions before you're consciously aware of them, by up to 7 seconds. This shows you're not consciously even in command of your predetermined decisions.

So you see there is no place for it to exist, no rock to hide from. You are a complex rock bouncing down the hillside of existence and your path is determined by factors already decided, friction, gravity, interactions with other rocks etc .

Added this post to the OP.

 

[Phlog]

Atheist trigger warning, I believe this is concurrent with Christian pantheism:

To the Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, Him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is he worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitations; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us; For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain of your own poets have said. For we are also his offspring. [Acts 17:23-28.]

It is in this that I find all compassion. Compassion for others is self interest for we are one and the same, all God.

 

[Rusk]

And you call him retarded... He always understood the random occurrences in the context of quantum superposition. Which is to say that determinism would be 100% if not for sometimes a dice being thrown at subatomic level.

So from the only 3 possible outcomes: 1.everything set in stone(determinism) 2.sometimes a dice is thrown and something random occurs(quantum superposition) and 3 (you are in control of what happens and can change the flow of the universe). The 3 is the only one which is not possible.

how does this disproves my point?

You are a physical entity, your a machine, there is no driver or programmer sitting outside of reality telling the machine to go this way or that way.

You cant even prove that physical world exists.

The most you can ever say is that you feel like you make choices.

so who is experiencing the illusion of choice?

 

[Phlog]

You cant even prove that physical world exists.

so who is experiencing the illusion of choice?

1 I think, therefore I have something to think with, therefore I am a physical entity. In so much that I can prove anything at all, I can depend on that.

2 everyone who makes a choice.

 

[Alcibiades007]

how does this disproves my point?

What's your point to begin with? If your view is predetermined it can't be the right one? How so?

 

[Alcibiades007]

In so much that I can prove anything at all

Key point here. Otherwise we're gonna get stuck in post modernist non productive discourse.