If free will doesn't exist...

[tmnpothead]

Did you just watch donnie darko or something?

 

[Deleted member 409801]

Shouldn't we be 0% judgmental? The 0 there is put on purpose as emphasis that even the peeps we perceive as the dumbest, cringiest, most obnoxious dudes out there, even serial killers shouldn't be judged. Just dealt with rationally with no hard feelings, so to speak.

Thoughts?

Probably so , what objective good does harboring " hard feelings" do for the harbor'er?

 

[Only Here for Attachments]

If there is no free will, who or whatever up there in control sure gets off on making my life difficult.

 

[Phr3121]

If free will doesn't exist... Shouldn't we be 0% judgmental? The 0 there is put on purpose as emphasis that even the peeps we perceive as the dumbest, cringiest, most obnoxious dudes out there, even serial killers shouldn't be judged. Just dealt with rationally with no hard feelings, so to speak. Thoughts?

Free will does exist.
Only loophole around that would be a person who is 'crazy', as in the brain not functioning properly.
Will you be turning this into a religious debate?

 

[Alcibiades007]

This is a nonstarter. If I had your genotype then I wouldn't be me. At best you're arguing that, in every circumstance, you would behave the way. But to say that we should be less judgmental because we understand that there's no free will, I'd think that you need to convincingly argue that everyone's autopilot should lead them in that direction.

See, this is where you become unsoundly judgmental. You focus on the fact that the baby you put in the same circumstances would ultimately make different decisions, hence you are in some sense superior to the dude who turns out a serial killer in the exact same conditions and entitled to judge him. But like I said that's not rational since nobody ever picked his own genotype. You being you is nothing magical or metaphysical, hence having the exact same genetics is mandatory if you truly want to "trade shoes" in every sense.

I'm not sure it would be. I like the argument against free will, especially when it becomes clear they're just talking about Cause and Effect. Is it so outlandish to think that everything we do is based in the context of our environment, both emotional and external, and that nothing can be done outside the parameters of reality? No, that's no surprise.

But what TS is also talking about is value and meaning (judgement), and I suppose the argument here is that without choice there is no meaning, causing the nihilists to lay in their beds dreading a future they cannot affect. "And isn't that freeing?" I'm not sure that's the correct conclusion to be made here, and I certainly don't find it liberating.

Or perhaps, in this case, meaning and value are what determine choice, even though all this might be an illusion. But as Fawlty says it's an illusion that counts so much that it can be taken as real.

...yeah, maybe weed is in order.

You might mistake Judgment - the ability to form valuable opinions and make good decisions, with being Judgmental which implies self-righteousness and criticism and hate towards others based on your own superiority.

I'm only arguing against the latter. If one makes use of proper judgment, he will not be judgmental, so to speak.

Free will does exist.
Only loophole around that would be a person who is 'crazy', as in the brain not functioning properly.
Will you be turning this into a religious debate?

Turning it into a religious discussion wouldn't shake the idea that free will doesn't exist either.
"And the beautiful part is that even in the context of religion there is no free will. Even if we have souls and God exists; whatever the soul is composed of(ectoplasm or whatever) and where ever it's located, one didn't choose his own soul when he was born. So the only room for intentional malevolence is for God himself lol. Ain't that some serious backfire" post #20 in this thread.

 

[Phlog]

Free will does exist.
Only loophole around that would be a person who is 'crazy', as in the brain not functioning properly.
Will you be turning this into a religious debate?

What's the difference between a brain that is functioning properly and one that is not functioning properly?

As psychologist that seems like a problematical distinction.

 

[Alcibiades007]

Here's a very edgy but nonetheless relevant hypothetical:

In the far future, picture a phile having a cup of coffee with another person for the first time casually telling him "I like to have sex with kids", whilst the other person replies "I like boobs". Through the means of ultra advanced high-tech virtual simulators, s all over the world now satiate their lust and carry on the rest of the day like normal human beings and no longer feel excluded.
The thought itself was never a crime, but of course if anyone would state the first sentence today, he would immediately strike fear or repulsion and would be shunned for good reasons. The reason simply being that you can never know when he gives in to his temptations.

This might get trickier with serial killers since psychopaths might not want to make any sort of compromise and the simple fact that the suffering of the victim isn't real will push them to a killing spree. Hope is not lost however! Through a complete mapping of the brain, encompassing all neuronal synapses and brain activity, scientists can identify the exact biologic or social reasons which induce his urge to kill. Hence, the rehabilitation process for murderers increase in efficiency incalculably and potentially every micro-catalyzer is removed.

Think of every disgusting, heinous thing you can imagine and the morally superior people of the future will still shrug it off. Think of brothers and sisters having sex and marrying each other. What if through genetic engineering, scientists of the far future will be able to modify the inbred embryo to stay clear of any mutation? Can you give me any moral reason as to why brothers and sisters can't marry if they love each other? Hell, I'd argue that sisters today should have the right to do so(this is actually worth a thread for the chuckles )
------

^Everything from above is bound to happen really as long as we don't destroy ourselves in the meantime. This is exactly what a moral landscape of our Utopian successors will look like with the knowledge of "no free will".
They will not look back in disgust that we institutionalized mass murderers in order to protect society as a whole, because it's easy to realize we don't have any better means with the current technological/medicinal progress. But they will surely disapprove of the ones who hated and judged today's "villains" even with the knowledge of no free will, when all along they were just unlucky people...

 

[minute bull]

You might mistake Judgment - the ability to form valuable opinions and make good decisions, with being Judgmental which implies self-righteousness and criticism and hate towards others based on your own superiority.

I'm only arguing against the latter. If one makes use of proper judgment, he will not be judgmental, so to speak.

I would like to agree we would be better off being less judgemental, although I can't, but I don't see how lack of free will plays a part in that. Just because we can't know doesn't mean we don't feel. It sounds like you're arguing against descending into emotionality.

To be sure, you're not conflating free will with choice or agency, are you?

 

[Swing]

See, this is where you become unsoundly judgmental. You focus on the fact that the baby you put in the same circumstances would ultimately make different decisions, hence you are in some sense superior to the dude who turns out a serial killer in the exact same conditions and entitled to judge him. But like I said that's not rational since nobody ever picked his own genotype. You being you is nothing magical or metaphysical, hence having the exact same genetics is mandatory if you truly want to "trade shoes" in every sense.

If I'm you exactly, we aren't trading shoes. That's nonsensical. It's just another instance of you. Trading shoes means putting me (not you) into your circumstances. Arguing that someone who is exactly like you, when placed in the same circumstances, would behave in the same way that you would is trivial. And it doesn't establish that we should be less judgmental towards each other on the basis of there not being free will.

It is rational regardless of whether or not we get to choose our own genotype. I'm an inferior fighter to Anderson Silva because of my genotype. That I didn't choose to be inferior to him physically has nothing to do with it. What would be irrational is telling someone not to judge me as inferior because I didn't choose to be that way. Choice has nothing to do with it.

 

[Deleted member 409801]

If there is no free will, who or whatever up there in control sure gets off on making my life difficult.

The universe isn't cruel or compasionate its indifferent. Things happen and you react to said things in a way that either makes you happy ......miserable or somewhere in between , with Zero cosmic fucks given either way.

 

[Spoken]

Existence is a dialectic between free will and determined circumstances that help build our identity and worldview.

 

[Alcibiades007]

If I'm you exactly, we aren't trading shoes. That's nonsensical. It's just another instance of you. Trading shoes means putting me (not you) into your circumstances. Arguing that someone who is exactly like you, when placed in the same circumstances, would behave in the same way that you would is trivial. And it doesn't establish that we should be less judgmental towards each other on the basis of there not being free will.

It is rational regardless of whether or not we get to choose our own genotype. I'm an inferior fighter to Anderson Silva because of my genotype. That I didn't choose to be inferior to him physically has nothing to do with it. What would be irrational is telling someone not to judge me as inferior because I didn't choose to be that way. Choice has nothing to do with it.

I don't understand where you're still getting caught up. Why is someone to be blamed for his genetic inheritance? You take measures against his actions if they are dangerous to society the same way you do against wild animals but why hate him?

 

[Swing]

I don't understand where you're still getting caught up. Why is someone to be blamed for his genetic inheritance? You take measures against his actions if they are dangerous to society the same way you do against wild animals but why hate him?

I'm not arguing that you or I, as individuals, should hate anyone. I just don't think your take on why we shouldn't is convincing.

 

[Phr3121]

What's the difference between a brain that is functioning properly and one that is not functioning properly? As psychologist that seems like a problematical distinction.

How does the U.S. court system determine someone insane?
Two things will cause the human brain to not function properly: Chemical reaction and physical structure (i.e. deformity or damage).

 

[deviake]

The universe isn't cruel or compasionate its indifferent. Things happen and you react to said things in a way that either makes you happy ......miserable or somewhere in between , with Zero cosmic fucks given either way.

Technically we are the universe and we care what happens to us.

 

[Phr3121]

Even if we have souls and God exists; whatever the soul is composed of (ectoplasm or whatever) and where ever it's located, one didn't choose his own soul when he was born.

What exactly does that have to do with free will? Apples and oranges...

 

[Pugilistic]

Freewill doesn't exist and I try not to be judgmental. I have knee jerk reactions of course but I realize it's not their fault some people are the way they are. Nobody would choose to be a dipshit if they could pick and choose who they are. That doesn't mean though that society and individuals shouldn't react to certain destructive behaviors. I also do think the European model of rehabilitating criminals into society is far more effective than simply trying to punish them like in most of the world.

 

[Alcibiades007]

What exactly does that have to do with free will? Apples and oranges...

If the soul doesn't add anything new to the state of the Universe which is absent of free will then yeah, it doesn't have anything to do with it. But if it does and your personality is based on your specific soul, then of course you are not at fault since you did not choose this evil soul when you were born(same way you didn't choose your genotype).

But I don't want to discuss this further since there is 0 scientific proof of either souls or a personal God.

 

[Phr3121]

Freewill doesn't exist and I try not to be judgmental.

So, you never made a choice by yourself?
Most people know the difference between right and wrong. They pick one knowing the consequences.

 

[Alcibiades007]

So, you never made a choice by yourself?
Most people know the difference between right and wrong. They pick one knowing the consequences.

That "choice" is nothing but a electro chemical reaction born from external stimulus applied on your genotype. From the moment you're born, you're basically on autopilot and because of our anatomy we perceive these unconscious reactions with delay giving the illusion of free will.