Idris Elba rumored to be next Bond

[Alphafail]

Nice strawman but we're discussing Bond, who is British and isn't produced by Hollywood.

Laterz.

 

[Phlog]

So what are you saying... you agree with this cast? I didn't go through all the pages, but this shit got nothing to do about racism and everything to do about just keeping the character the way he is since the 50's

Yeah if you search my posts ITT you'll see my point being put as eloquently as I could manage.

Cliffs are that I don't see how it would actually change the character much more than Craig did with blonde hair. Moore to Craig is a massive change in character, more so than say Craig to Elba.

Really I'm a massive fan of Idris and I think he would slay the role. The amount of shade being cast by people however makes me think now, that instead of his performance being judged it would just all be about his skin colour.

A sad state of affairs.

Bond has always adapted to the current day so as to not appear to dated. Thus the social mores appropriate in the 50's are not applicable now.

 

[MikeMcMann]

What I meant is that to the English, as far as they know and care, I am English. Were I to play Bond no one would be saying I'm not English etc. It's not Idris Elba's Englishness that is getting people's panties in a bunch, it's the colour of his skin.

There have been black Englishmen since the 17th century to my knowledge, you can have been black and English longer than your country existed.

Yup. Exactly right.

This topic NEVER gets raised with regards to Tom Holland, Cumberbatch, Hiddleston, Bale, Daniel Day Lewis, Henry Cavill and so many more white actors. I doubt it would come up if Cavill or Hiddleston was being considered for the next Bond.

Here you have Idris, a black Brit who in all ways outside skin colour fits the Bond profile and suddenly we are engaged in a discussion of what makes a true Brit and whether Idris qualifies or not. Suddenly we are all first to google his ancestry.

For the record I don't see @FierceRedBelt having any malice in his post and to me their is no racism without some form of malice. I actually understand the points he is expressing but I find it very pedantic and overly subjective for a topic like this. Idris absolutely fits all the qualifications of being a mature Bond if that is the path they want to go and really the only things that could possibly raise a flag for anyone is his skin colour. There is nothing else.

 

[MikeMcMann]

So what are you saying... you agree with this cast? I didn't go through all the pages, but this shit got nothing to do about racism and everything to do about just keeping the character the way he is since the 50's

There is really no such thing as the above in media where a series continues. They pretty much ALL go through refreshes and changes with an eye to the audience as it changes. What worked in the 50's rarely will work today. If what you want was true most black characters today would still be played by white men in black face makeup. So the question is if almost everything else gets refreshed and changed is skin colour somehow sacrosanct? And if so why?

Things do change and SHOULD change with the audience. There is no reason to protect everything for one singular audience that was the most catered to prior (white males) in terms of all the vast, vast majority of media being CHANGED to reflect them and now saying everything must stay the same for that group because they do not like change now, all of a sudden when the change is FINALLY directed at others.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

I've never even been to England so I'm not sure if phenotype plays into the experience. It's very possible the white English way of life is very different than the black English way of life.

It definitely does. A black Bond in the 60s would have been stretch because British blacks back then weren't a big part of the population. I agree that Old World countries have been racially homogenous for millennia so dealing with different races is going to be... difficult for them.

But in 2018, and especially in London, British blacks have collectively had: 1) a few generations living England, and 2) their experience be an important part of the city. As right-wingers constantly remind everyone, London is full (they call it festering or swarming) of brown and black people, and has been for a few decades now. According to this, London is 41% nonwhite

https://www.trustforlondon.org.uk/data/topics/population-geography/

So for a black dude to have been born to well-off immigrant parents in the 70s and raised in London in the 80s and 90s and become a spy for MI6 really isn't far-fetched.

 

[Yoel Bromero]

Elba is good. As an unapologetic honkey I can comfortably say he'd likely be great as bond. He's got a cool arrogance about him that is bondish. They way that he portrayed stringer bell and luthor makes me confident he can be the subtle badass yet charismatic charmer that bond essentially is.

Hes the best non craig choice out there imo.

 

[Deleted member 409801]

Western geopolitical enemies are like Russia, China, North Korea, Iran ... I can't see why a black spy would have any trouble infiltrating any of these places

Maybe he's gonna pull a Rodman?

 

[Mike]

What the fuck are we going to do as a species, at least in the West about living together in peace?

This whole race thing is so tiring. A constant refrain. To get to a place where you could be against a black James Bond and make a thread yet bot have anyone mention racism would be amazing. Where we see race and it means something but no one's fucked by it. Is that even possiblelop

It is tiring, but Imo that utopia isn't coming. I used to think it was when I was younger, because progress was so rapid. But we are not wired for it. In fact, our biggest barrier as a people is that we're wired in all kinds of tribal nonsensical ways, that inevitably lead to hostility.


Someone will ALWAYS be different, other, not acceptable. A shocking number of people either don't seem to grasp how our behavior is affected by our primal nature, or they're just not capable of overcoming it with logic. You could wave a magic wand and get everyone the same color, same religion, same government, income, etc. and the next war would just be over football teams or some other equally trivial nonsense. As dumb as that sounds, we've been fighting over made up sky wizards and melanin content for millennia


We just love to fight, it's what we are. It seems evolution would ensure whatever is at the top of the food chain would have that mentality.

 

[Mike]

You can see how much substance this debate has had.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

The highly individual nature of this stuff makes it not worth caring about for me. You probably couldn't find a person less interested in their "heritage" I don't have strong relationships with any of my family, or know much about my family history at all. So everything that I am, has been shaped by my experiences. Never worry about being a representative of "my people", because I have no people.

As a result I look at people defined by their skin pigment, or where there grandfather was born, and it just seems kind of weak to me. You are defined by what you do. Not your skin color, or ancestors, or being a 2nd generation this or 10th generation that. IMO, the stronger your sense of self, the less you need such labels. All that extensive labeling is for people that aren't secure, for whatever reason, in who THEY are.

You don't control your color or where you were born, so why take pride in that? YOU didn't have anything to do with it. Take pride in who YOU have decided to be.

As a fellow halfie, I understand, and agree with a lot of what you're saying here. I also think it's kind of weak to define yourself by things you had no control over. Being proud of stuff like height,good looks, or your ethnicity, to the point where you've made it your identity, is kind of weak to me.

That being said though, there's only so much within your control. My view of me, is not necessarily going to be society's view of me. And often times society does not wait to see what you'll do, or what you'll say before they cast judgement. I'm black and japanese, and grew up in Japan, and am living and working there now, and most people already think they know about me before i open my mouth. So, it can be difficult to be secure with who you are when literally every single day of your life the rest of the world is trying to tell you who you are. It can be a tiring battle, so, I do get the people who just embrace their race, and say 'yea, this is who i am'.
I also think part of the pride in race is more of a counter to the negativity society at large has made minorities feel. It's more of a fighting back against soceity making you feel guilty or bad for being black or brown.

I think it's a bit different with mixed people. People often tell me i'm lucky to be mixed, and I don't disagree or agree with that perse--it has it's advantages and disadvantages, but one thing I do somewhat envy with people who are of one race is they do have this pride, or 'team' identity that they can cling to if they wish. Your race shouldn't be all you're about, but I can understand how it can be an important part of your identity as far as history and culture go

 

[Mike]

As a fellow halfie, I understand, and agree with a lot of what you're saying here. I also think it's kind of weak to define yourself by things you had no control over. Being proud of stuff like height,good looks, or your ethnicity, to the point where you've made it your identity, is kind of weak to me.

That being said though, there's only so much within your control. My view of me, is not necessarily going to be society's view of me. And often times society does not wait to see what you'll do, or what you'll say before they cast judgement. I'm black and japanese, and grew up in Japan, and am living and working there now, and most people already think they know about me before i open my mouth. So, it can be difficult to be secure with who you are when literally every single day of your life the rest of the world is trying to tell you who you are. It can be a tiring battle, so, I do get the people who just embrace their race, and say 'yea, this is who i am'.
I also think part of the pride in race is more of a counter to the negativity society at large has made minorities feel. It's more of a fighting back against soceity making you feel guilty or bad for being black or brown.

I think it's a bit different with mixed people. People often tell me i'm lucky to be mixed, and I don't disagree or agree with that perse--it has it's advantages and disadvantages, but one thing I do somewhat envy with people who are of one race is they do have this pride, or 'team' identity that they can cling to if they wish. Your race shouldn't be all you're about, but I can understand how it can be an important part of your identity as far as history and culture go

Yeah you are definitely at least partially defined by these things, because they so radically alter your experience. I could be wrong here, I think mixed race people are more likely to have a similar attitude to mine, and really push back against that concept. Because up until VERY recently, being mixed race was something that got you ostracized from both communities.

I've met so many people when I was younger that wanted to tell me who I am, or what I should be, purely based on how I look, that by my late teens I was completely over judging people in that way. It's stifling. Don't tell me I have to be a certain narrow rigid thing to fit in. Worse yet, if I don't pretend to be the things you say I should be, I'm the one being fake. Even though the things you've chosen for me to be, might not have been influential in my life at all? Yeah get the fuck outta here with that. I reject that out of hand.


I feel like that made me notice more, how many people have their entire sense of self arbitrarily attached to things that don't really have much to do with who they are as a person. Your looks, color, where you're born, etc. are all things you have no control over. So to say they're a major part of defining who you are is crazy to me. Like I'm not interested in my blackness or whiteness, or where my ancestors are from. Even a little. None of that has anything to do with who I am today.

 

[Phlog]

It is tiring, but Imo that utopia isn't coming. I used to think it was when I was younger, because progress was so rapid. But we are not wired for it. In fact, our biggest barrier as a people is that we're wired in all kinds of tribal nonsensical ways, that inevitably lead to hostility.


Someone will ALWAYS be different, other, not acceptable. A shocking number of people either don't seem to grasp how our behavior is affected by our primal nature, or they're just not capable of overcoming it with logic. You could wave a magic wand and get everyone the same color, same religion, same government, income, etc. and the next war would just be over football teams or some other equally trivial nonsense. As dumb as that sounds, we've been fighting over made up sky wizards and melanin content for millennia


We just love to fight, it's what we are. It seems evolution would ensure whatever is at the top of the food chain would have that mentality.

I dunno man, I still hope that one day..

 

[minute bull]

I've met so many people when I was younger that wanted to tell me who I am, or what I should be, purely based on how I look, that by my late teens I was completely over judging people in that way. It's stifling. Don't tell me I have to be a certain narrow rigid thing to fit in. Worse yet, if I don't pretend to be the things you say I should be, I'm the one being fake. Even though the things you've chosen for me to be, might not have been influential in my life at all? Yeah get the fuck outta here with that. I reject that out of hand.

Even though I'm highly aware biracial people tend to get it from both sides -- the misconception is believing there are sides to begin with, and I'm not discounting the real cultural differences between races. What I mean is EVERYONE will tell you who you are and what you're supposed to be based on what they perceive, and lending credence to any group or any of it is a risk you take at your own peril.

 

[Mike]

Even though I'm highly aware biracial people tend to get it from both sides -- the misconception is believing there are sides to begin with, and I'm not discounting the real cultural differences between races. What I mean is EVERYONE will tell you who you are and what you're supposed to be based on what they perceive, and lending credence to any group or any of it is a risk you take at your own peril.

I get what you're saying but there's a marked difference, in the same way someone wouldn't question the heritage of a white guy with an English accent playing bond, white people typically do not get complete strangers approaching them and telling them they are not acting white enough. White is already a vague term, encompassing a number of races.

If you appear to be part of an ethnic group, both whites and and members of that ethnic group feel comfortable saying why do you do white guy stuff, why don't you act more like insert ethnic group here. Now of course in the last twenty years or so all of this stuff has changed quite a bit. But when I was growing up, well into my late teens/early twenties, it was a pretty common experience.


We still see vestiges of it today, with stuff like yeah Elba is british, but how British is he really. A white british guy would not have people discussing his ancestry.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

Yeah you are definitely at least partially defined by these things, because they so radically alter your experience. I could be wrong here, I think mixed race people are more likely to have a similar attitude to mine, and really push back against that concept. Because up until VERY recently, being mixed race was something that got you ostracized from both communities.

I've met so many people when I was younger that wanted to tell me who I am, or what I should be, purely based on how I look, that by my late teens I was completely over judging people in that way. It's stifling. Don't tell me I have to be a certain narrow rigid thing to fit in. Worse yet, if I don't pretend to be the things you say I should be, I'm the one being fake. Even though the things you've chosen for me to be, might not have been influential in my life at all? Yeah get the fuck outta here with that. I reject that out of hand.


I feel like that made me notice more, how many people have their entire sense of self arbitrarily attached to things that don't really have much to do with who they are as a person. Your looks, color, where your born, etc. are all things you have no control over. So to say they're a major part of defining who you are is crazy to me. Like I'm not interested in my blackness or whiteness, or where my ancestors are from. Even a little. None of that has anything to do with who I am today.

Yeah, I've met people with both views. But I can definitely be in the minority on this. I've spent most of my life outside of the states, so my experience with this is a different sort.

I do think a large part of it is going to depend what you look like, as well as what mix you are. Being half black and whatever usually comes with more baggage than other mixes, imo. And depending on what you look like, or can 'pass' as will effect how people treat you, and how you see yourself. It's easier to just accept that you're black if you look more black than anything else, and you're living around other blacks. I've known people that were half that have just clung to their black side. It's pretty impossible to do it for your white side. (Not that i think it should be impossible, it's just society would have a shit fit about it if say Obama had only embraced his white side)

But I do agree that it is ridiculous to have your entire self worth be decided by things that are out of your control..it just feels to me that we don't have a lot of control over that though. Despite Obama being half white and raised solely by a white mother, he's still called "the first black president". It's hard to not have outside opinions have a rather large effect on who you become. But, I again, i think my experience is probably a lot different from the typical mixed American experiecne

 

[minute bull]

I get what you're saying but there's a marked difference, in the same way someone wouldn't question the heritage of a white guy with an English accent playing bond, white people typically do not get complete strangers approaching them and telling them they are not acting white enough. White is already a vague term, encompassing a number of races.

If you appear to be part of an ethnic group, both whites and and members of that ethnic group feel comfortable saying why do you do white guy stuff, why don't you act more like insert ethnic group here. Now of course in the last twenty years or so all of this stuff has changed quite a bit. But when I was growing up, well into my late teens/early twenties, it was a pretty common experience.


We still see vestiges of it today, with stuff like yeah Elba is british, but how British is he really. A white british guy would not have people discussing his ancestry.

Talking about the viability of Bond being Black and wrongly categorizing a person based on appearance are two things that are beneath more-than-superficial-consideration. Whether Bond is purple, and what I think of you -- none of this matters in the very least, and it only does when we allow it. Justifiably, it's hard to resist when we're CONSTANTLY subjected to it and it's also true that should this avenue continue we risk adopting criticism as self-criticism. To think White people don't get the same magnitude of criticism is to pretend every individual should get the same fair shot in life. Further, White people may not get flak like, "Why come you not mo White?" but how does this explain the vast number of insecure people out there who happen to be White? Not making enough money, no respect from peers, fractured love/sex life, mental health. There are a lot of shortcomings being used against White people.

I'm not trying to reduce or minimize your plight, in any way, to be sure. Mine is not a discussion to paint you into a corner but rather, to continue the shoddy metaphor, realize that walking through paint isn't as impossible as it seems.

 

[Mike]

Yeah, I've met people with both views. But I can definitely be in the minority on this. I've spent most of my life outside of the states, so my experience with this is a different sort.

I do think a large part of it is going to depend what you look like, as well as what mix you are. Being half black and whatever usually comes with more baggage than other mixes, imo. And depending on what you look like, or can 'pass' as will effect how people treat you, and how you see yourself. It's easier to just accept that you're black if you look more black than anything else, and you're living around other blacks. I've known people that were half that have just clung to their black side. It's pretty impossible to do it for your white side. (Not that i think it should be impossible, it's just society would have a shit fit about it if say Obama had only embraced his white side)

But I do agree that it is ridiculous to have your entire self worth be decided by things that are out of your control..it just feels to me that we don't have a lot of control over that though. Despite Obama being half white and raised solely by a white mother, he's still called "the first black president". It's hard to not have outside opinions have a rather large effect on who you become. But, I again, i think my experience is probably a lot different from the typical mixed American experiecne

It is a bit different for the darker skinned races, because we focus so much on apperance. You might have some other heritage, but people judge on what they see. I've found a lot of white people just assume I'm black. But black people know better, and ask what I'm mixed with. Whereas other races sometimes can't tell at all, I've gotten guesses of Cuban or Hispanic. It's an interesting variable in that it's invisible for lighter skinned people. 2nd or 3rd generations of some ethnic groups here just identify as white now, when there's no way their ancestors were considered white when they arrived. Italians, russians, jews, germans etc.

 

[Mike]

Talking about the viability of Bond being Black and wrongly categorizing a person based on appearance are two things that are beneath more-than-superficial-consideration. Whether Bond is purple, and what I think of you -- none of this matters in the very least, and it only does when we allow it. Justifiably, it's hard to resist when we're CONSTANTLY subjected to it and it's also true that should this avenue continue we risk adopting criticism as self-criticism. To think White people don't get the same magnitude of criticism is to pretend every individual should get the same fair shot in life. Further, White people may not get flak like, "Why come you not mo White?" but how does this explain the vast number of insecure people out there who happen to be White? Not making enough money, no respect from peers, fractured love/sex life, mental health. There are a lot of shortcomings being used against White people.

I'm not trying to reduce or minimize your plight, in any way, to be sure. Mine is not a discussion to paint you into a corner but rather, to continue the shoddy metaphor, realize that walking through paint isn't as impossible as it seems.

Well Im certainly not saying its some insurmountable obstacle. Or that today mixed race people have it extra hard. Every time this topic comes up I mention most of the stigma over being mixed race is gone, compared to when I grew up.

Just pointing out that it's a different experience than what someone that is more obviously one race would have. Less racial solidarity, more scrutiny.

 

[minute bull]

 

[hiphopnazi]

...and Idris is British born and raised.

Well that is unless you take the view of that one poster upthread that Blacks or other ethnics even born in Britain are not true Brits.

I should've added white as per books. Born in Britain, you're British, pretty simple. Try and not group me with those crap comments.