How will you remember RJJ?

djacobox372 said:
The greatest boxer of his generation. I don't care about his late career... to put things in perspective: at 34yo Roy was winning the HW title in dominating fashion, the same age Leonard was when he was destroyed by Norris.
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Floyd was during his generation though.
 
Definitely the greatest athlete boxing has ever seen.
 
TRYHARD 2001 said:
Everyone's already covered the major bases for Roy, but for me, he may well have been the hardest punching MW of all-time. He wasn't there for a super long time, but the power he had at that weight was frightening. We all know about the speed, agility, and inability to throw a jab, but the power he possessed at 160 was amazing. In his youth he was like Bo Jackson in Tecmo Bowl.

And RJJ/Michaelczewski didn't happen because neither one of them wanted it to happen badly enough, not just Roy. Dariusz didn't wanna leave Germany and Roy didn't want to leave the States to make it happen so it didn't happen. For the record, RJJ would've pieced him up for 12 rounds.
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ya, i've said that before, he'd hit guys at jr middle and middle and they'd look like they were shot.

as far as the europeans, it didn't make sense to me at the time but in retrospect, he was right to not go over there, it's a great way to get fucked, which had happened to him before. Sad thing is that after he fell apart he was taking fights anywhere. I hope the stories of him having financial problems are just rumors.
 
djacobox372 said:
The greatest boxer of his generation. I don't care about his late career... to put things in perspective: at 34yo Roy was winning the HW title in dominating fashion, the same age Leonard was when he was destroyed by Norris.
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that's right, i remember like yesterday, i think it was after the woods fight, i was hanging out at my gym and some guy was saying how much he hated Roy, I told him "get ready, he's almost 35, he's going to be slowing down anytime soon" and lo and behold, he wins the heavyweight title and then falls off a cliff.
 
defjaam said:
What is your top ten though? It's hard to imagine that all boxers in there exceed what Roy did - Olympic gold (pretty much), looked unbeatable from 160-175, influenced the entire sport with his style, world champion in several weight classes (including the heavyweight championship).
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top ten? the obvious choices:
Robinson
Pep
Duran
Leonard
Louis
Armstrong
Ali
Hagler
Moore
shit, i'm having a hard time with a tenth guy, but it doesn't matter, i can't place roy any higher than guys like alexis arguello, Chavez, Griffith, Pryor, whitaker, guys who proved everything a great champion has too, remember the criteria.
a. Beat another great fighter
b. Beat someone who previously beat you
c. win a title young and win a title old
d. came back in a fight and win when there looked to be no chance.
e. Come out on top in a thrilla in manila type of fight.
out of all these, you can say he beat toney or hopkins but neither guy looked good in those fights, you could say he beat Griffin but griffin shouldn't have been able to win the first fight. He still managed a couple of those. But we have fighters who've done all of these things multiple times, Robinson, Leonard, Hagler, Louis, devestastated in rematches. I just don't know, roy never had to take the punishment the proletariat boxers took for a couple reasons, his astounding speed and power and the lack of willing talent around. He was always beating up on guys who looked like they weren't even trying. Some of these guys are more incompetent than others but guys like that one Glenn guy didn't even look like a professional boxer to me and people say "ooh, roy put his hands behind his back".

Now, we just don't know but what i know is that lots of fighters in history would not have made it easy for roy, basilio, fullmer, robinson, lamotta would have at the very least fought back. How much credit do we give roy when most of his opponents were just posturing through the fight? How much credit do we give him when he's beating up on the ricky fraziers of the world? How much credit do we give him when once someone found his chin, he was never again able to beat a good fighter? Louis was kayoed, Frazier was kayoed, Foreman was kayoed, all came back to beat or compete with the best. Roy was shellshocked, did a wierd thing where he'd try to use all the wrong tools to block punches and would close his eyes. I'm telling you, some of these other fighters would at least have a punchers chance to put him on his ass and they would have been trying. A lot of what we got from roy was smoke and mirrors, it was a brilliant show but it's my opinion that he really shouldn't be ranked all that highly.
 
mozfonky said:
top ten? the obvious choices:
Robinson
Pep
Duran
Leonard
Louis
Armstrong
Ali
Hagler
Moore
shit, i'm having a hard time with a tenth guy, but it doesn't matter, i can't place roy any higher than guys like alexis arguello, Chavez, Griffith, Pryor, whitaker, guys who proved everything a great champion has too, remember the criteria.
a. Beat another great fighter
b. Beat someone who previously beat you
c. win a title young and win a title old
d. came back in a fight and win when there looked to be no chance.
e. Come out on top in a thrilla in manila type of fight.
out of all these, you can say he beat toney or hopkins but neither guy looked good in those fights, you could say he beat Griffin but griffin shouldn't have been able to win the first fight. He still managed a couple of those. But we have fighters who've done all of these things multiple times, Robinson, Leonard, Hagler, Louis, devestastated in rematches. I just don't know, roy never had to take the punishment the proletariat boxers took for a couple reasons, his astounding speed and power and the lack of willing talent around. He was always beating up on guys who looked like they weren't even trying. Some of these guys are more incompetent than others but guys like that one Glenn guy didn't even look like a professional boxer to me and people say "ooh, roy put his hands behind his back".

Now, we just don't know but what i know is that lots of fighters in history would not have made it easy for roy, basilio, fullmer, robinson, lamotta would have at the very least fought back. How much credit do we give roy when most of his opponents were just posturing through the fight? How much credit do we give him when he's beating up on the ricky fraziers of the world? How much credit do we give him when once someone found his chin, he was never again able to beat a good fighter? Louis was kayoed, Frazier was kayoed, Foreman was kayoed, all came back to beat or compete with the best. Roy was shellshocked, did a wierd thing where he'd try to use all the wrong tools to block punches and would close his eyes. I'm telling you, some of these other fighters would at least have a punchers chance to put him on his ass and they would have been trying. A lot of what we got from roy was smoke and mirrors, it was a brilliant show but it's my opinion that he really shouldn't be ranked all that highly.
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Jones shouldnt be in the top 10.
The guys you named have done alot more than he did.
 
mozfonky said:
top ten? the obvious choices:
Robinson
Pep
Duran
Leonard
Louis
Armstrong
Ali
Hagler
Moore
shit, i'm having a hard time with a tenth guy, but it doesn't matter, i can't place roy any higher than guys like alexis arguello, Chavez, Griffith, Pryor, whitaker, guys who proved everything a great champion has too, remember the criteria.
a. Beat another great fighter
b. Beat someone who previously beat you
c. win a title young and win a title old
d. came back in a fight and win when there looked to be no chance.
e. Come out on top in a thrilla in manila type of fight.
out of all these, you can say he beat toney or hopkins but neither guy looked good in those fights, you could say he beat Griffin but griffin shouldn't have been able to win the first fight. He still managed a couple of those. But we have fighters who've done all of these things multiple times, Robinson, Leonard, Hagler, Louis, devestastated in rematches. I just don't know, roy never had to take the punishment the proletariat boxers took for a couple reasons, his astounding speed and power and the lack of willing talent around. He was always beating up on guys who looked like they weren't even trying. Some of these guys are more incompetent than others but guys like that one Glenn guy didn't even look like a professional boxer to me and people say "ooh, roy put his hands behind his back".

Now, we just don't know but what i know is that lots of fighters in history would not have made it easy for roy, basilio, fullmer, robinson, lamotta would have at the very least fought back. How much credit do we give roy when most of his opponents were just posturing through the fight? How much credit do we give him when he's beating up on the ricky fraziers of the world? How much credit do we give him when once someone found his chin, he was never again able to beat a good fighter? Louis was kayoed, Frazier was kayoed, Foreman was kayoed, all came back to beat or compete with the best. Roy was shellshocked, did a wierd thing where he'd try to use all the wrong tools to block punches and would close his eyes. I'm telling you, some of these other fighters would at least have a punchers chance to put him on his ass and they would have been trying. A lot of what we got from roy was smoke and mirrors, it was a brilliant show but it's my opinion that he really shouldn't be ranked all that highly.
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Not sure I agree, but that's a respectable opinion.
Roy pretty much fulfils your criteria aside from having a Thriller in Manila type of fight. I guess he wasn't the type of boxer to have that fight.

I think Floyd & Pacquaio fulfil your criteria too, and there really can't a case be made that Arguello, Pryor, Chavez & Whitaker should be ranked above them. Just like certain boxers from your top 10.
But then again Floyd & Pacquaio didn't enjoy the advantage of black & white magic.
 
defjaam said:
Not sure I agree, but that's a respectable opinion.
Roy pretty much fulfils your criteria aside from having a Thriller in Manila type of fight. I guess he wasn't the type of boxer to have that fight.

I think Floyd & Pacquaio fulfil your criteria too, and there really can't a case be made that Arguello, Pryor, Chavez & Whitaker should be ranked above them. Just like certain boxers from your top 10.
But then again Floyd & Pacquaio didn't enjoy the advantage of black & white magic.
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roy is such an unusual case, i always end up back where I began. but i do remember mike katz once saying whitaker was his then-current pfp and said that he couldn't "in good conscience" place jones above Pernell. Although Roy may have been able to make some of these guys look like fools, maybe, but it kind of would make me feel guilty when you've got guys like arguello, who fought his heart out and paid for it with his brain cells, then we have a guy, who when it came his time to take some, couldn't do it (not say wouldn't which was Katz' gripe at the time) he just couldn't and i also have a hard time believing all the greats of the past would have just let roy do his thing like most of his opponents did.
 
RJJ was one of if not the most naturally gifted fighters to ever put on the gloves. In his prime, he was as close to unbeatable as anyone in the history of the sport.
 
Most gifted ever. One of the best peaks and primes ever.
 
let's do some head to head for roy:

1. Ray Leonard-Roy Jones I'd pick Ray PfP but Jones in a middleweight version because he was a huge middleweight.
2. Hagler-Jones: I'd pick Hagler to at least be able to hurt Roy and take him out. Marvin was about as smart as anyone who ever fought and also had an all time chin. Roy was known for kayoing guys who were hard to hurt but I don't think he can beat Marvelous.
3. Hearns-Jones: Hearns had about as much speed as anyone ever but not the coordination, his combos were nowhere near as fluid as other fighters with great speed. I think Roy would break him to the body and take him out. Tommy just wasn't durable (neither was roy so that makes it interesting) but I really think Roy is just too explosive for Tommy.
4. Robinson-Jones: tough to pick because Robinson is just so exceptional but he was a good, solid, 10 pounds (he commonly never went much higher than 56-57 as middleweight) over his best weight. So, like Ray Leonard, pfp, he's better, at middleweight, it's a tough pick because, as mentioned, Roy was a huge middleweight with insane speed and power for the division. Still, ray had everything as far as intagibles and still enough speed and power to take out a lot of guys at middleweight. I'll put it this way, at welter, Ray was a lot closer to the level of speed and power that roy had as the sinewy welterweight he was, not the softer looking middle he became. In fact, they used to always say he was the best combination of speed and power ever.
5. Duran-Jones: Duran was inconsistent, I would have no faith picking him at middleweight over Roy, none.
6. Mayweather-Jones: Mayweather was never a middleweight but he's the guy who took up Roy's mantle, I always thought Roy was way better than Mayweather. Not in every department of course but good enough to beat Mayweather prime for prime.
 
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mozfonky said:
let's do some head to head for roy:

1. Ray Leonard-Roy Jones I'd pick Ray PfP but Jones in a middleweight version because he was a huge middleweight.
2. Hagler-Jones: I'd pick Hagler to at least be able to hurt Roy and take him out. Marvin was about as smart as anyone who ever fought and also had an all time chin. Roy was known for kayoing guys who were hard to hurt but I don't think he can beat Marvelous.
3. Hearns-Jones: Hearns had about as much speed as anyone ever but not the coordination, his combos were nowhere near as fluid as other fighters with great speed. I think Roy would break him to the body and take him out. Tommy just wasn't durable (neither was roy so that makes it interesting) but I really think Roy is just too explosive for Tommy.
4. Robinson-Jones: tough to pick because Robinson is just so exceptional but he was a good, solid, 10 pounds (he commonly never went much higher than 56-57 as middleweight) over his best weight. So, like Ray Leonard, pfp, he's better, at middleweight, it's a tough pick because, as mentioned, Roy was a huge middleweight with insane speed and power for the division. Still, ray had everything as far as intagibles and still enough speed and power to take out a lot of guys at middleweight. I'll put it this way, at welter, Ray was a lot closer to the level of speed and power that roy had as the sinewy welterweight he was, not the softer looking middle he became. In fact, they used to always say he was the best combination of speed and power ever.
5. Duran-Jones: Duran was inconsistent, I would have no faith picking him at middleweight over Roy, none.
6. Mayweather-Jones: Mayweather was never a middleweight but he's the guy who took up Roy's mantle, I always thought Roy was way better than Mayweather. Not in every department of course but good enough to beat Mayweather prime for prime.
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I don't think Hagler could get his offense going against Roy... Hagler vs. James Toney and Hagler vs. Bernard Hopkins are the more interesting fights IMO.

With Roy its as the same as with Ali vs. Tyson... Fantasy fights involving Roy don't give me chills. I can pretty much envision the entire fights in fights that he wins. He wouldn't be included one single time in my top 10 fantasy fights that I'd want to see... Probably not even top 20.
 
defjaam said:
I don't think Hagler could get his offense going against Roy... Hagler vs. James Toney and Hagler vs. Bernard Hopkins are the more interesting fights IMO.

With Roy its as the same as with Ali vs. Tyson... Fantasy fights involving Roy don't give me chills. I can pretty much envision the entire fights in fights that he wins. He wouldn't be included one single time in my top 10 fantasy fights that I'd want to see... Probably not even top 20.
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ok, but those are the things we need to be asking, how would all that flash and dash go with guys who wouldn't let him do his thing without a fight? You know these guys are going to try harder than glenn what's his face.
 
mozfonky said:
ok, but those are the things we need to be asking, how would all that flash and dash go with guys who wouldn't let him do his thing without a fight? You know these guys are going to try harder than glenn what's his face.
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Roy would look mortal against them. He always did when fighting boxers who were savvy, who had toughness, and who had certain athletic attributes. That's why I wouldn't want to see those fights... Not much too see in my opinion.
 
Was always a huge James Toney fan, so I used to hate Roy. Looking back though i love Roy as well now.I was also one of the only Antonio Tarver fans ever I guess lol.
 
Most dominant fighter ever at his best. I wouldn’t favor anyone over him between 160-175.
Did fight on too long and tarnished his legacy a bit.
His resume is actually very good and far deeper than just BHop and Toney.
 
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