How we ruined grappling Sports

[-guerilla-]

I mean Judo style, with rules approaching mma rules without the striking. Grab the legs? So what it wasn't an eye gouge. Knee reaping? Wtf is that? A normal position? We reap all day.

Obviously you'd need a takedown score system of some type.

But as a judoka, the purest Judo I've ever trained was at Hayastan.

Gi, no gi, it didn't matter.

All takedowns were cool.

All submissions were cool.


I wasn't alive for 1915 kodokan before the leglocks got banned but it felt like the closest I could ever get to that in the modern era. I grew up with 90s judo before the penalty system got weird.

I'm at a gracie barra place now due to non martial related geographical moves and the resident blackbelt loves me.

My no gi harai goshi is getting shared and spread all around.

They love the leglock game.

Its great to be alive.

Yeah it was perfect in the beginning, they've been screwing it up ever since!

 

[AZ103]

The biggest tragedy is folk style wrestling that crap needs to go replace it with Olympic freestyle and move on.

That way our American wrestlers will be able to compete at the Olympic level and transition better to mix martial arts

STFU folkstyle is a fantastic style of grappling and is THE grappling art for top control against an opponent trying to reach their feet. No other art has that emphasis on pure top control and ride time. The amount of uneducated jackasses in this thread is astounding.

 

[-guerilla-]

STFU folkstyle is a fantastic style of grappling and is THE grappling art for top control against an opponent trying to reach their feet. No other art has that emphasis on pure top control and ride time. The amount of uneducated jackasses in this thread is astounding.

If folkstyle is so dominate...
Then why can't they win in the Olympics???

(Sound of judges mallet)

 

[AZ103]

Leg riding is not better in freestyle, and you have to have more control to ride well. And you keep forgetting in freestyle you don’t have stop the guy from trying to get out from bottom

Additionally everyone conveniently ignores the fact Khabib trains with folkstyle wrestlers

Also additionally if you actually pay attention to current events the USA freestyle team is getting top 3 in worlds because..
1. Actual money so athletes can keep training
2. World champs are using folkstyle type turns and being creative to use them in freestyle
3. The reffing is slightly less corrupt.

The amount of medals the US would have if matches weren’t corrupted by bribed refs would shut up half of the people who talk shit on American wrestling alone

the TS is a nut case with a crusade against folkstyle. His arguments for removing the hand clasping seems fine to me with a 5 count but his passionate tirades are embarrassing.

 

[AZ103]

If folkstyle is so dominate...
Then why can't they win in the Olympics???

(Sound of judges mallet)

If youre so good at checkers why cant you beat me at chess?
They are similar but different offering their athletes different advantages when mastered. But you can keep the tunnel vision going it looks cute on you.

 

[rmongler]

Clasping hands is just one grip out of many.

Successful control when riding an opponent doesn't depend on just one grip, and looking at it merely in terms of grips, for that matter, is superficial.

Successful riding depends on building essential qualities pertinent to the situation; good mat sense, good balance, good pressure, et cetera.

The idea that someone focused on freestyle would be better on the ground, even though freestyle rules specificially minimize and de-incetivize matwork, because he can do a gutwrench, is just ludicrous... almost a non-sequitur even.

 

[-guerilla-]

Clasping hands is just one grip out of many.

Successful control when riding an opponent doesn't depend on just one grip, and looking at it merely in terms of grips, for that matter, is superficial.

Successful riding depends on building essential qualities pertinent to the situation; good mat sense, good balance, good pressure, et cetera.

The idea that someone focused on freestyle would be better on the ground, even though freestyle rules specificially minimize and de-incetivize matwork, because he can do a gutwrench, is just ludicrous... almost a non-sequitur even.

I said freestyle was better for MMA not "matwork"

Because of takedowns, slams, throws and leg lacing.

wrestling is best for shuting down strikers, takedowns, slams and throws.... not matwork where they often get tapped by BJJ

BJJ is best for "matwork"

Folkstyle is weak, thats why Americans cant win in the Olympics.

Why don't they just pin the freestyle guys with their "matwork"

 

[-guerilla-]

If youre so good at checkers why cant you beat me at chess?
They are similar but different offering their athletes different advantages when mastered. But you can keep the tunnel vision going it looks cute on you.

Well Americans cant win at Judo, freestyle or Greco so thats 0 for 3....

Like I said if folkstyle was a better system than they would win, they dont.

 

[rmongler]

I said freestyle was better for MMA not "matwork"

Because of takedowns, slams, throws and leg lacing.

wrestling is best for shurting down strikers, takedowns, slams and throws not matwork where they get tapped by BJJ

BJJ is best for "matwork"

Folkstyle is weak, thats why Americans cant win in the Olympics.

Why don't they just pin the freestyle guys with their "matwork"

Matwork is not broadly allowed in freestyle, the ref will stand you up, and the bottom player has no incentive to escape (or learn good escapes), because he can just stall and wait for the stand up. That's why pins don't happen.

Many BJJ players transitioning to MMA often have a notable weakness in riding; ie, the ability to keep an opponent down on the ground and preventing an escape while you are on top. Even if you get a takedown, none of that effort matters if you can't keep him down for more than a second to do work afterwards. Even if your plan is something like pulling halfguard and try to come up with a sweep, it doesn't matter if you cant keep him down after you come up on top. In order to impose grappling on an opponent, you must first be able to ride.

As it stands, no other grappling style out there incentivizes development of capability in riding more than folkstyle, which is one of the most essential skills there is to succeed as a grappler in MMA; only things like judo or sambo come close.

 

[AZ103]

Well Americans cant win at Judo, freestyle or Greco so thats 0 for 3....

Like I said if folkstyle was a better system than they would win, they dont.

Because we focus on a different form of grappling. One with a strong fan base who under stands its importance. One look at the curret US roster and youd know we are among the best wrestling countries and cultures of the world. Folkstyle brought people and moments to MMA your ungrateful ass would never has seen. Youre being an inflammatory hipster. We are
Living in the Golden age of grappling with Quintet, EBI, and the monsters in wrestling right now. Better start enjoying it.

 

[jack36767]

I said freestyle was better for MMA not "matwork"

Because of takedowns, slams, throws and leg lacing.

wrestling is best for shuting down strikers, takedowns, slams and throws.... not matwork where they often get tapped by BJJ

BJJ is best for "matwork"

Folkstyle is weak, thats why Americans cant win in the Olympics.

Why don't they just pin the freestyle guys with their "matwork"

Lol have you watched any film or results recently

 

[-guerilla-]

Matwork is not broadly allowed in freestyle, the ref will stand you up, and the bottom player has no incentive to escape (or learn good escapes), because he can just stall and wait for the stand up. That's why pins don't happen.

Many BJJ players transitioning to MMA often have a notable weakness in riding; ie, the ability to keep an opponent down on the ground and preventing an escape while you are on top. Even if you get a takedown, none of that effort matters if you can't keep him down for more than a second to do work afterwards. Even if your plan is something like pulling halfguard and try to come up with a sweep, it doesn't matter if you cant keep him down after you come up on top. In order to impose grappling on an opponent, you must first be able to ride.

As it stands, no other grappling style out there incentivizes development of capability in riding more than folkstyle, which is one of the most essential skills there is to succeed as a grappler in MMA; only things like judo or sambo come close.

Thanks for the intelligent response!

The whole point of this thread is that complicated rule sets serve as a barrier to entry for athletes. folkstyle has more complicated less instinctual rules than freestyle.

folk style wrestling has rules that are not instinctual, like clasping your hands around an opponent, in the two decades that I've been coaching folk-style wrestling I can't remember how many athletes tried out for the team only to quit in a confused mess because the rules were so complicated.

in fact the school I coached for had an international program and we had a lot of Bosnian athletes who understood freestyle as their native wrestling system.

I have a lot of experience converting freestyle to Folkstyle.

As some have pointed out folkstyle emphasises matwork and riding over takedown, throws and slams...
Matwork/RIDING is where submissions happen... so why would you want to train in a Matwork/RIDING specialist system that dosent even have submissions?

The main advantage of wrestlers is being able to shut down a striker and deliver slams, throws and takedowns that render your opponent more vulnerable to follow-up strikes and submissions.... that is what freestyle wrestlers train for primarily, hard explosive takedowns, throws and slams.


folkstyles matwork and RIDING is about PINNING your opponent this is completely worthless in mixed martial arts!

In folkstyle wrestling your RIDING an opponent who has his back turned to you and fights like hell to never turned his back to the mat which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what happens in MMA where opponents pull GUARD to protect themselves and sweep, submit, and reverse from GUARD!


Escapes are a MAJOR park of folkstyle..
Escapes in Folkstyle are VERY vulnerable to BJJ ....In fact the VAST MAJORITY of folkstyle escapes involve TURNING YOUR BACK on your opponent...!!!

Try folkstyle sitout/standup/hip heist series on any decent BJJ fighter and there gonna hook on to your back.

If you want to get better at Matwork train giless BJJ

BJJ is the king of matwork... not folk style wrestling.

Wrestlings primary advantage in mma is the TAKEDOWN!

that's what wrestlers do best...

the best TAKEDOWN artists in all of grappling history are FREESTYLE wrestlers!

Freestyle wrestlers dominate American athletes in the Olympics and the only one completing in the UFC is the champion In his class!

 

[rmongler]

folkstyles matwork and RIDING is about PINNING your opponent this is completely worthless in mixed martial arts!

You are incorrect.

In folkstyle wrestling your RIDING an opponent who has his back turned to you and fights like hell to never turned his back to the mat which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what happens in MMA where opponents pull GUARD to protect themselves and sweep, submit, and reverse from GUARD!

So you say folkstyle is good at pinning (holding a guy down by various means, usually on his back specifically), but then say that this is useless in MMA, but then say that there are many situations in MMA where you are holding a guy down on his back...

Your thought patterns are disordered.

Escapes are a MAJOR park of folkstyle..
Escapes in Folkstyle are VERY vulnerable to BJJ ....In fact the VAST MAJORITY of folkstyle escapes involve TURNING YOUR BACK on your opponent...!!!

Which is done repeatedly and successfully in MMA. Actually, pretty much everyone does it if/when they want to escape, regardless of background. Using the cage is a big factor in this.

 

[-guerilla-]

You are incorrect.



So you say folkstyle is good at pinning (holding a guy down by various means, usually on his back specifically), but then say that this is useless in MMA, but then say that there are many situations in MMA where you are holding a guy down on his back...

Your thought patterns are disordered.



Which is done repeatedly and successfully in MMA. Actually, pretty much everyone does it if/when they want to escape, regardless of background. Using the cage is a big factor in this.

Riding time in folkstyle wrestling involves controlling an opponent who has his back facing you and is trying to avoid having his back turned towards the mat...


In mixed martial arts your grounded opponent is most likely going to be in guard or at least facing you so that they can protect themselves from strikes and chokes!

This is THE EXACT OPPOSITE position your as your "riding time" in folkstyle wrestling...

Freestyle Wrestling specializes in explosive throws, takedowns and slams and that's the most important thing for mixed martial arts.

Turning your back on an opponent occurs in MMA but only for a split second while someone is scrambling to their feet and quite often they get knocked unconscious in the process.

I would suggest you are a thousand times better off with the giless BJJ ground game...wrestling's ground game is all about pinning which is worthless in MMA.

 

[rmongler]

Riding time in folkstyle wrestling involves controlling an opponent who has his back facing you and is trying to avoid having his back turned towards the mat...


In mixed martial arts your grounded opponent is most likely going to be in guard or at least facing you so that they can protect themselves from strikes and chokes!

Holding a person in near-fall position (back exposure) scores points in folkstyle wrestling, and pin-fall is a victory condition in folkstyle wrestling. So yes, riding someone while their back is to the mat is definitely 'in the cards'. As an illustrative example, look up the term 'leg turk'.

Further more, effective riding depends on the development of body positioning, mat sense, balance, pressure, and et cetera, which all apply whichever way the opponent is facing.

Turning your back on an opponent occurs in MMA but only for a split second while someone is scrambling to their feet and quite often they get knocked unconscious in the process.

In reality, not quite often. Rare and unusual in fact.

I would suggest you are a thousand times better off with the giless BJJ ground game...

The character of training many athletes who nominally participate in the tradition of 'brazilian jiu-jitsu' is highly influenced by the IBJJF competitive tournament circuit.

In the rule structure of IBJJF tournaments, there is very little incentive for a person who is on bottom to try to escape to his feet (rather than come to grips); indeed, if he does happen to be on his feet already, he as a great incentive to put himself into bottom position, as soon as possible (to remove an opportunity for his opponent to score on him).

For these and other reasons, many athletes who's gyms nominally advertise under the name of BJJ tend to have holes in their game with regards to holding down opponents who have no interest in staying down; the circumstance rarely if ever comes up, so they have no need to develop such capacity or waste limited training time on such matters.

wrestling's ground game is all about pinning which is worthless in MMA.

You say holding a person down on their back is important in MMA, then you say holding a person down on their back is not important in MMA.

Your thought patterns are disordered.

 

[JohnPJones]

Don't do JJ personally but find it hard to believe a proliferation of schools or an expanding MMA base has anything to do with your salty attitude. Another one of those "I saw it first so I'm a better fan" stories.

honestly it's the same thing that happened to a lot of TMA schools in the 70s-80s.

X martial art gets popular, people who have little to no formal training in the art open a school/gym/dojo/etc to cash in on the fad, they get successful they keep going. i'm not deep in the BJJ world but it seems that BJJ is starting to experience some 'stolen valor' black belts, i think i've even seen a BJJ class being run inside a gym by a purple belt.

when people see a chance to make money often the unscrupulous will jump to take advantage of those who don't know any better.

 

[jack36767]

Thanks for the intelligent response!

The whole point of this thread is that complicated rule sets serve as a barrier to entry for athletes. folkstyle has more complicated less instinctual rules than freestyle.

folk style wrestling has rules that are not instinctual, like clasping your hands around an opponent, in the two decades that I've been coaching folk-style wrestling I can't remember how many athletes tried out for the team only to quit in a confused mess because the rules were so complicated.

in fact the school I coached for had an international program and we had a lot of Bosnian athletes who understood freestyle as their native wrestling system.

I have a lot of experience converting freestyle to Folkstyle.

As some have pointed out folkstyle emphasises matwork and riding over takedown, throws and slams...
Matwork/RIDING is where submissions happen... so why would you want to train in a Matwork/RIDING specialist system that dosent even have submissions?

The main advantage of wrestlers is being able to shut down a striker and deliver slams, throws and takedowns that render your opponent more vulnerable to follow-up strikes and submissions.... that is what freestyle wrestlers train for primarily, hard explosive takedowns, throws and slams.


folkstyles matwork and RIDING is about PINNING your opponent this is completely worthless in mixed martial arts!

In folkstyle wrestling your RIDING an opponent who has his back turned to you and fights like hell to never turned his back to the mat which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what happens in MMA where opponents pull GUARD to protect themselves and sweep, submit, and reverse from GUARD!


Escapes are a MAJOR park of folkstyle..
Escapes in Folkstyle are VERY vulnerable to BJJ ....In fact the VAST MAJORITY of folkstyle escapes involve TURNING YOUR BACK on your opponent...!!!

Try folkstyle sitout/standup/hip heist series on any decent BJJ fighter and there gonna hook on to your back.

If you want to get better at Matwork train giless BJJ

BJJ is the king of matwork... not folk style wrestling.

Wrestlings primary advantage in mma is the TAKEDOWN!

that's what wrestlers do best...

the best TAKEDOWN artists in all of grappling history are FREESTYLE wrestlers!

Freestyle wrestlers dominate American athletes in the Olympics and the only one completing in the UFC is the champion In his class!

Get better at coaching and they didn’t quit because it was too complicated. Additionally again you keep showing deliberate ignorance of what’s been going on in mma and in international lately. The US is back to being top 3 in worlds. And in mma most fighters are trying to get to their feet.. again you show massive ignorance of both meta and what is actually going on and how to teach wrestling lol

 

[-guerilla-]

Holding a person in near-fall position (back exposure) scores points in folkstyle wrestling, and pin-fall is a victory condition in folkstyle wrestling. So yes, riding someone while their back is to the mat is definitely 'in the cards'. As an illustrative example, look up the term 'leg turk'.

Further more, effective riding depends on the development of body positioning, mat sense, balance, pressure, and et cetera, which all apply whichever way the opponent is facing.




In reality, not quite often. Rare and unusual in fact.




The character of training many athletes who nominally participate in the tradition of 'brazilian jiu-jitsu' is highly influenced by the IBJJF competitive tournament circuit.

In the rule structure of IBJJF tournaments, there is very little incentive for a person who is on bottom to try to escape to his feet (rather than come to grips); indeed, if he does happen to be on his feet already, he as a great incentive to put himself into bottom position, as soon as possible (to remove an opportunity for his opponent to score on him).

For these and other reasons, many athletes who's gyms nominally advertise under the name of BJJ tend to have holes in their game with regards to holding down opponents who have no interest in staying down; the circumstance rarely if ever comes up, so they have no need to develop such capacity or waste limited training time on such matters.




You say holding a person down on their back is important in MMA, then you say holding a person down on their back is not important in MMA.

Your thought patterns are disordered.

Good point on the sport Jiu Jitsu lack of incentive for stand-ups/ escapes but I'm talking about people who train BJJ for MMA not sport BJJ but you got a great point that the vast majority of BJJ participants live in a fantasy world where they can work guard all day long and no one's striking at them.

I said working towards the PIN is not important in MMA... pinning combinations in folk style wrestling do not translate that well to MMA because they involve pinning your opponent as the absolute victory.

The entire cradle/splattle/Nelson/bow and arrow Series is totally worthless in MMA and represent the vast majority of folks style pinning combinations.

My point is a folk style wrestler will spend years developing these holds which are completely worthless in MMA whereas the freestyle wrestler doesn't give these a second thought and since they're completely worthless and MMA the freestyle wrestler has time to focus on the most important aspect of MMA which is the takedown, Slam, throw.

I've been a folk style coach with in MMA gym for 20 years and I recruit the vast majority of my MMA fighters from my folk-style program.

I know all there is to know about converting a folk-style wrestler to an MMA fighter.

If you leg turk somebody in MMA you just gave them a half guard... that's a great way to turn a guy from his belly to his back which of course is completely worthless in MMA

Where did I say it was important to hold someone on their back in MMA? Personally if I was on a guy's back I would have no interest in turning him over I'd rather put my legs in and pound/choke him out

 

[-guerilla-]

honestly it's the same thing that happened to a lot of TMA schools in the 70s-80s.

X martial art gets popular, people who have little to no formal training in the art open a school/gym/dojo/etc to cash in on the fad, they get successful they keep going. i'm not deep in the BJJ world but it seems that BJJ is starting to experience some 'stolen valor' black belts, i think i've even seen a BJJ class being run inside a gym by a purple belt.

when people see a chance to make money often the unscrupulous will jump to take advantage of those who don't know any better.

That's a major crux of the argument I'm trying to make is that the profit mentality in America's business model gyms isn't good for the sport whereas places in other countries like the kodokan in Japan have state-sponsored low-cost martial arts training for all taxpaying citizens wouldn't that be great if we had those opportunities here

 

[JohnPJones]

That's a major crux of the argument I'm trying to make is that the profit mentality in America's business model gyms isn't good for the sport whereas places in other countries like the kodokan in Japan have state-sponsored low-cost martial arts training for all taxpaying citizens wouldn't that be great if we had those opportunities here

No, it wouldn’t.
Not the government’s place.

In the modern era the count dantes and frank duxes of the world will have a difficult time selling their bullshit.
You’ll never get rid of all the shit, but at least with proliferation of video recording devices, the internet, and the pride of real BJJ black belts I think it’s as bad as it’ll get and it’s no where near what happened to karate for example...

A few outside challenges to shitty school owners/instructors, or a few fights getting lost in 3rd party competition and you can really mess with a school’s student base.