How we ruined grappling Sports

[-guerilla-]

The rules are just too complicated and serve as a barrier for entry to Young athletes and this is what handicaps our long-term development in martial arts in this country.

I've literally had thousands of kids show up for wrestling practice and in the first few weeks quit because they thought the rules were just too complicated to learn.

They have the athleticism strength and drive they had everything they needed to be great wrestlers

They just found the rules to be way too complicated and overwhelming.

Plus they keep CHANGING them so much that even veteran folk wrestlers get mixed up all the time!

I coached folkstyle for 15 years and still do today!

 

[jack36767]

All good points the international corruption in refereeing is pretty Epic

But bro there's no way you can suggest that folkStyle is better at putting legs in than freestyle and the figure 4 thing is HUGE!!!

I would argue that freestyle wrestlers have a major advantage in takedowns and control whereas folk-style wrestlers have a slight Edge in mat wrestling escapes however this gets negated when you go up against the good Jiu Jitsu guys.

you are more vulnerable down on the mat whereas a good freestyle wrestler is going to slam the guy and pound him out folk Style guys get overconfident down on the mat and often get tapped where as the freestyle guy will just stand up and then deliver another epic slam on his opponent. Plus when you see the folkstyle guys instinctively break their grip when they take down their opponent ....
Man it drives you crazy



..but they don't have folkstyle in Dagestan, I'm pretty sure khabibs background is freestyle primarily then sambo and Judo?
He most likely had a lot of exposure to boxing as well.

99% of Americans did a little folk style in high school and then did strip mall gi BJJ and kickboxing in two separate classes.

IMO the best possible mma combo (grapplng)..(except mma from birth) is sambo, real judo (not olympic) and freestyle...bjj=real judo

What are you talking about, figure 4 leg riding and slam mat return are a daily practice in any college wrestling room.. I’m not going to argue with ignorance anymore. And you don’t need to keep hands clasped all the time. Eye roll

 

[-guerilla-]

What are you talking about, figure 4 leg riding and slam mat return are a daily practice in any college wrestling room.. I’m not going to argue with ignorance anymore. And you don’t need to keep hands clasped all the time. Eye roll

OOOO KAY... figure 4 and slams perfectly legal in American folkstyle wrestling...hmmm maybee watch that vid I just posted a few times!

Back when American folkstyle wrestling was awesome you could suplex your opponent lace your legs in slap on body triangle while locking in a full nelson!

Your literally only allowed to figure 4 a single leg since 2011 I believe!

We would DOMINATE mma if we hadent NERFED folstyle!

Seriously i admire your tenacity, the days when you could return your opponent to the mat with force and apply holds like the body triangle (fig 4) are long gone.

The whole point of this thread is that grapplng sports rules (ESPECIALLY in the USA) are CONSTANTLY being fiddled with and that creates a MASSIVE barrier to entry for the sports.

People from 3rd world countries are kicking our ass in fightsports in 2019...

There's alot wrong with that senario!

 

[jack36767]

OOOO KAY... figure 4 and slams perfectly legal in American folkstyle wrestling...hmmm maybee watch that vid I just posted a few times!

Back when American folkstyle wrestling was awesome you could suplex your opponent slap on body triangle while locking in a full nelson!

We would DOMINATE mma if we hadent NERFED folstyle!

Seriously i admire your tenacity, the days when you could return your opponent to the mat with force and apply holds like the body triangle (fig 4) are long gone.

The whole point of this thread is that grapplng sports rules (ESPECIALLY in the USA) are CONSTANTLY being fiddled with and that creates a MASSIVE barrier to entry for the sports.

People from 3rd world countries are kicking our ass in fightsports in 2019...

There's alot wrong with that senario!

Dear god the ignorance

 

[-guerilla-]

Dear god the ignorance

http://board.themat.com/index.php?/topic/5189-so-a-figure-4-around-the-body-is-ok-now/




Take home message=big slams and throws are gonna get called in folkstyle and you can only figure 4 in a couple of very specific circumstances. One leg or head and arm....or perhaps they changed the rules again while I was typing....lol

Freestyle is was better for the MMA transition and even they won't let you body triangle anymore...

Meanwhile in freestyle

 

[jack36767]

http://board.themat.com/index.php?/topic/5189-so-a-figure-4-around-the-body-is-ok-now/

Lol figure 4 around the body isn’t used in freestyle either

 

[-guerilla-]

Lol figure 4 around the body isn’t used in freestyle either

Your not reading my posts are you?

They used to allow it but recently changed the rules.

 

[jack36767]

Your not reading my posts are you?

They used to allow it but recently changed the rules.

Not that recently and your fundamental understanding is flawed

 

[Based and White Pilled]

I was raised internationally till 15 when we moved to the usa, my background was freestyle Greco and judo, I was extremely effective at putting in legs and figure 4. Folk guys sucked at leg rides and figure 4 because they couldent lock hands like the freestyle athlete and most fig 4 is illegal in folk.... IN MMA leg lacing and fig 4 is MASSIVELY CRITICAL TO MASTER...

Unless you trained from childhood in these Styles you are going to be less effective than those that do.

5 years ain't much in the internarional grappling community so your transition was probably easier than someone who has to do folk from birth

people like khabib train from childood in freestyle and submission and it shows!

It's not really fair to use Khabib as an example for freestyle because he has done sambo his entire life.

I think things have changed since you were doing folkstyle because leg riding is extremely common. Look at someone like askren or shields. Their top games are unreal.

You can try to spin it however you want, but the results speak for themselves. If your grappling background is in wrestling, folkstyle is the best. The best non-American wrestlers in MMA either have a strong background in another form of grappling like sambo or primarily use their wrestling defensively.

 

[-guerilla-]

You used to be able to body triangle and lock hands on downed opponants in wrestling , they kept changing the rules because they saw it as stalling tactics and wanted to make the sport more exciting to watch...

is there anything flawed bout that synopsis?

 

[-guerilla-]

It's not really fair to use Khabib as an example for freestyle because he has done sambo his entire life.

I think things have changed since you were doing folkstyle because leg riding is extremely common. Look at someone like askren or shields. Their top games are unreal.

You can try to spin it however you want, but the results speak for themselves. If your grappling background is in wrestling, folkstyle is the best. The best non-American wrestlers in MMA either have a strong background in another form of grappling like sambo or primarily use their wrestling defensively.

Khabib is a perfect example of a freestyle wrestler because he's from the old Soviet Bloc countries that don't recognize folk Style

My experience is that International wrestlers are better at leg rides because they train for turns more than American wrestlers

in fact American wrestling has fought against leg riding because it is often considered a stalling tactic... they're catching up to be sure but training in a style from birth will make you more effective at it.

This is a classic "my karate is stronger" debate so it could go on forever but I think the results are actually in the international wrestlers favor whereas mixed martial arts has an extremely high level of International Champions.

In the UFC (America's Premier mixed martial arts event)
Almost 1/2 of the Champions have come from an international background to date.

Considering the vast majority of participants in the UFC are Americans this statistic becomes even more impressive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFC_champions

 

[shunyata]

UFC is an international promotion that is based in the US and runs events all over the planet.


Not teaching leg locks in jj until brown belt is retarded.

Judo + BJJ = full Jiu Jitsu



And I'd like to see freestyle judo in the Olympics.

 

[-guerilla-]

UFC is an international promotion that is based in the US and runs events all over the planet.



Not teaching leg locks in jj until brown belt is retarded.

Judo + BJJ = full Jiu Jitsu



And I'd like to see freestyle judo in the Olympics.

Good point on UFC but I think the data is impressive...

What do you mean by freestyle Judo?

 

[Based and White Pilled]

Khabib is a perfect example of a freestyle wrestler because he's from the old Soviet Bloc countries that don't recognize folk Style

My experience is that International wrestlers are better at leg rides because they train for turns more than American wrestlers

in fact American wrestling has fought against leg riding because it is often considered a stalling tactic... they're catching up to be sure but training in a style from birth will make you more effective at it.

This is a classic "my karate is stronger" debate so it could go on forever but I think the results are actually in the international wrestlers favor whereas mixed martial arts has an extremely high level of International Champions.

In the UFC (America's Premier mixed martial arts event)
Almost 1/2 of the Champions have come from an international background to date.

Considering the vast majority of participants in the UFC are Americans this statistic becomes even more impressive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFC_champions

You're insane.

God bless.

 

[-guerilla-]

You're insane.

God bless.

Good productive discussion technique... I think I learn that one in my Verbal Judo class LOL

You do understand that folkstyle only exists in the United States school system and nowhere else in the whole planet right?

 

[Based and White Pilled]

Khabib is a perfect example of a freestyle wrestler because he's from the old Soviet Bloc countries that don't recognize folk Style

My experience is that International wrestlers are better at leg rides because they train for turns more than American wrestlers

in fact American wrestling has fought against leg riding because it is often considered a stalling tactic... they're catching up to be sure but training in a style from birth will make you more effective at it.

This is a classic "my karate is stronger" debate so it could go on forever but I think the results are actually in the international wrestlers favor whereas mixed martial arts has an extremely high level of International Champions.

In the UFC (America's Premier mixed martial arts event)
Almost 1/2 of the Champions have come from an international background to date.

Considering the vast majority of participants in the UFC are Americans this statistic becomes even more impressive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFC_champions

Good productive discussion technique... I think I learn that one in my Verbal Judo class LOL

You do understand that folkstyle only exists in the United States school system and nowhere else in the whole planet right?

Ok, I'll respond to your ridiculous points.

No, Khabib is a terrible example of a freestyle wrestler because he crosstrained in another martial art that has ground fighting and submissions. In fact, he's better at that martial art that he was at wrestling. You cannot honestly attribute his abilities to freestyle wrestling because of his background in sambo that actually exceeds his background in wrestling.

Someone else has already pointed out that the UFC is an international competition.

Yes, there have been many UFC champions who weren't American. However, according to the link that you provided, it isn't even close to half of the champions to date. Very few of the non-American champions have a wrestling background, so that fact does absolutely nothing for your argument. A large majority of the non-American champions are Brazilian, not a big wrestling nation. The only non-American UFC champions with any wrestling credentials are Khabib and Whittaker. By bringing up the number of foreign champions all you've done is weaken your argument, because almost none of the foreign champions are wrestlers.

Yes, I know that folkstyle is only practiced in the US. I never said it's the most popular or the best sport. I only said that I think it's the best form of wrestling to transition into submission grappling.

 

[yetanother]

Not teaching leg locks in jj until brown belt is retarded.

Under ibjjf rules leg locks aren't that important.
Having blue belts focus on toe holding people rather then guard passing or sweeping would actually hurt their development.

 

[shunyata]

Under ibjjf rules leg locks aren't that important.
Having blue belts focus on toe holding people rather then guard passing or sweeping would actually hurt their development.

Because not teaching the straight ankle lock until brown belt = winning?

I'm not saying "toehold over pass, always!" but if it's there it's there and you should know how to attack it and how to defend it.


You have to realize I've seen dumb indoctrinated motherfuckers twenty years ago swear that learning the kimura game is poor developmental practice cause that shit is a strong man move.


Someone fed you bullshit and you ate it.

 

[shunyata]

Good point on UFC but I think the data is impressive...

What do you mean by freestyle Judo?

I mean Judo style, with rules approaching mma rules without the striking. Grab the legs? So what it wasn't an eye gouge. Knee reaping? Wtf is that? A normal position? We reap all day.

Obviously you'd need a takedown score system of some type.

But as a judoka, the purest Judo I've ever trained was at Hayastan.

Gi, no gi, it didn't matter.

All takedowns were cool.

All submissions were cool.


I wasn't alive for 1915 kodokan before the leglocks got banned but it felt like the closest I could ever get to that in the modern era. I grew up with 90s judo before the penalty system got weird.

I'm at a gracie barra place now due to non martial related geographical moves and the resident blackbelt loves me.

My no gi harai goshi is getting shared and spread all around.

They love the leglock game.

Its great to be alive.

 

[-guerilla-]

Ok, I'll respond to your ridiculous points.

No, Khabib is a terrible example of a freestyle wrestler because he crosstrained in another martial art that has ground fighting and submissions. In fact, he's better at that martial art that he was at wrestling. You cannot honestly attribute his abilities to freestyle wrestling because of his background in sambo that actually exceeds his background in wrestling.

Someone else has already pointed out that the UFC is an international competition.

Yes, there have been many UFC champions who weren't American. However, according to the link that you provided, it isn't even close to half of the champions to date. Very few of the non-American champions have a wrestling background, so that fact does absolutely nothing for your argument. A large majority of the non-American champions are Brazilian, not a big wrestling nation. The only non-American UFC champions with any wrestling credentials are Khabib and Whittaker. By bringing up the number of foreign champions all you've done is weaken your argument, because almost none of the foreign champions are wrestlers.

Yes, I know that folkstyle is only practiced in the US. I never said it's the most popular or the best sport. I only said that I think it's the best form of wrestling to transition into submission grappling.

Well I will agree that in the AMERICAN tournaments INTERNATIONAL freestyle wrestling is underrepresented.

However

American folkstyle wrestling is underrepresented in INTERNATIONAL tournaments.

And I don't believe the UFC talent scouts are looking for somebody that can beat their franchised athletes in Dagestan

Brazil is a MASSIVE country and their only form of wrestling is olympic freestyle/greco.
BJJ is the franchise Americans understand but all the BJJ champs have trained in and against freestyle wrestling not folkstyle!

The most dangerous thing to a wrestler is a good striker/sprawler....

The freestyle athletes concentration on takedowns and throws plus their MASTERY of leg lacing/rides/grapevine makes the style more effective in MMA



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khabib_Nurmagomedov

Khabib Nurmagomedov:

Wikipedia:
Gadzhi Makhachev Freestyle Wrestling Club

As is common with many children in Dagestan, he began wrestling from an early age: he started at the age of eight under the tutelage of his father Abdulmanap Nurmagomedov.[17] A decorated athlete and a veteran of the Army, his father had also wrestled from an early age, before undergoing training in judo and sambo in the military

29 of 68 (20%) of UFC championships were owned by athletes who's only exposure to wrestling was freestyle/greco

They won almost half of Americans biggest mma tournament.