How we ruined grappling Sports

[AnotherOldGuy]

Wrong.

lay n pray is offensive wrestling = boring
wall n stall is offensive wrestling = boring

you are the casual boring fight fan.

You know, there are plenty of combat sports out there with no grappling. Boxing and kick boxing in particular are very easy to find. You'd probably be much happier watching them. Seriously, you sound like someone who watches triathlon for the running, and then complains that they have also have swimming and biking.

Why not just change the channel to boxing instead of watching MMA?

 

[MMA_AZ]

isnt that... Flamma? someting like that. roman gladitaor, never lost

It's "With a Turned Thumb" by Jean-Léon Gérôme.

 

[Ryo]

Yep, very obvious where this thread came from...

 

[INTERL0PER]

What "ruined" grappling sports was when trailer trash discovered the UFC around the late 90s and all these strip-mall jiu jitsu schools started popping up all over the place.

Yeah! BJJ was so much better when no one knew what it was! I wish it'd stayed in obscurity and never became popular. I hate how there's amazing competitions all over the world, with insanely talented grapplers. I also hate how easy it is to find great training these days. Just the other day I was chatting to a black belt and he was taking about the days when you'd be stoked to see a blue belt, let alone a black belt. There were four black belts in class that day.

Why couldn't it have stayed an obscure martial art that no one outside of Brazil knew about?! WHY?

Spoiler

 

[TITS]

Yeah! BJJ was so much better when no one knew what it was! I wish it'd stayed in obscurity and never became popular. I hate how there's amazing competitions all over the world, with insanely talented grapplers. I also hate how easy it is to find great training these days. Just the other day I was chatting to a black belt and he was taking about the days when you'd be stoked to see a blue belt, let alone a black belt. There were four black belts in class that day.

Why couldn't it have stayed an obscure martial art that no one outside of Brazil knew about?! WHY?

Spoiler

You could have made your point without all the bullshit sarcasm.

 

[INTERL0PER]

You could have made your point without all the bullshit sarcasm.

But where's the fun in that?

I thought it was such a ridiculous statement that it deserved a ridiculous reply.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

UFC fans discussing grappling...<45>

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

Man are you kidding!?

FOLKSTYLE RIDES!!!

hopefully Ben Askrens Dominance along with Khabibs will lend an appreciation for folkstyle.

 

[-guerilla-]

Man are you kidding!?

FOLKSTYLE RIDES!!!

hopefully Ben Askrens Dominance along with Khabibs will lend an appreciation for folkstyle.

Folkstyle wrestling exclusively exists in high school and Collegiate programs within the United States

any non American wrestler has never practiced it. Folkstyle doesn't exist outside of our borders.

We invented new rules instead of adopting international Olympic freestyle and greco,

That's why we do so poorly in Olympic wrestling.

The hand clasping rule is probably the biggest troublemaker of all, it only exists within the American scholastic system and is not recognized in any other grappling contest worldwide

 

[-guerilla-]

Even the great Alexander Karelin got mixed up because of the constant fiddling with the rules of wrestling and lost a FIASCO match in the 2000 Sydney olympic games to rulon gardner.

Karelin was confused about a recent rule change and tried to adjust his grip thus giving up a point and his 13 year undefeated streak to a mid-level so so rulon Gardner, this was a tragedy for the sport. It's nearly impossible to find an objective article about the match because the American patriotic machine went into overdrive hysteria about the win

 

[-guerilla-]

UFC fans discussing grappling...<45>

MMA fans discussing how grappling rules affect an athletes transition to other sports and how it relates to MMA

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

yeah, the no clasping is stupid

 

[THEfightsAREfixed]

what do you mean the hand clapsing rule?

In american folkstyle wrestling you cannot interlace fingers when hand fighting like when you are playing that old school "mercy" game where you try and get the other person to give up by fucking their wrist and fingers up.

It basically makes it so you cannot grab hands very easily as you must have at least three fingers in a grip, and you cannot lace your fingers into theirs.

Not sure about all the Olympic wrestling stuff as I only dabbled a small amount into freestyle/greco and not old enough to have witnessed and followed the rule changes on that level that affected the Karelin match and all that.

 

[-guerilla-]

In olympic wrestling and all other grapplng arts/sports I know of you can lock hands around the body, having to break and regrip depending on your opponents position is insanity...or folkstyle

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

Folkstyle wrestling exclusively exists in high school and Collegiate programs within the United States

any non American wrestler has never practiced it. Folkstyle doesn't exist outside of our borders.

We invented new rules instead of adopting international Olympic freestyle and greco,

That's why we do so poorly in Olympic wrestling.

The hand clasping rule is probably the biggest troublemaker of all, it only exists within the American scholastic system and is not recognized in any other grappling contest worldwide

what do you mean the hand clapsing rule?

 

[-guerilla-]

In american folkstyle wrestling you cannot interlace fingers when hand fighting like when you are playing that old school "mercy" game where you try and get the other person to give up by fucking their wrist and fingers up.

It basically makes it so you cannot grab hands very easily as you must have at least three fingers in a grip, and you cannot lace your fingers into theirs.

Not sure about all the Olympic wrestling stuff as I only dabbled a small amount into freestyle/greco and not old enough to have witnessed and followed the rule changes on that level that affected the Karelin match and all that.

It's actually much more Persnickety than interlacing fingers you can get called for clasping if your hands are side by side and not even touching much less gripped around a down opponent's waist in Scholastic/Collegiate American wrestling it's insanity...

Alexander karelin broke his grip intentionally in order to improve his position forgetting that the rule had been recently changed and thus gave up a point ending his 13-year unbeaten streak...what a crime to change Olympic history because some idiots had to fool around with an ancient Sports rule system!

 

[rmongler]

MMA fans discussing how grappling rules affect an athletes transition to other sports and how it relates to MMA

Folkstyle is better for MMA.

 

[jack36767]

Folkstyle is better than freestyle for mma

 

[Based and White Pilled]

Don't you think it would be a better idea for us to do Freestyle Wrestling in the usa rather than invent our own style of wrestling with our own set of rules that handicaps our athletes in their transition to the Olympics MMA or any other grappling Style?

I coached wrestling at the high school level for about 15 years and I just returned to coaching this season and I forgot how stupid the hand clasping rule was. The hand clasping rule makes it more difficult for a folkstyle wrestler to transition to Olympic wrestling and MMA

one has to wonder just how great our wrestlers would have been on the international stage if we had enough sense to join the rest of the world rather than invent our own sports

I can remember when Alexander karelin lost to rulon Gardner in that complete debacle of rule change switch-a-roo garbage

I'm with you on the hand-clasping rule, but I think you're completely wrong about the folkstyle ruleset being a hindrance when transitioning to other grappling arts. I think folkstyle transitions to bjj far better than than freestyle because of the mat wrestling.

 

[jack36767]

If you thinks folk-style is better provide a reason why?
Some people have cited riding time and I would concede it helps but not nearly as important as being able to clasp your hands on a downed opponent

Because learning how to keep someone down without desperately hanging around the waist reaches one to control the hips and enables easier punching and ground and pound. Almost every freestyle only wrestler can’t keep anyone down in mma.
Additionally the reasons the US struggled for a while in freestyle had more to do with funding and training than folkstyle

As to Karelin, he lost because he came in relatively out of shape and might have been forced to come wrestle in 2000. A focused in shape Karelin doesn’t come down to locked hands

 

[-guerilla-]

what do you mean the hand clapsing rule?

In every other grappling contest since the dawn of man it is legal to lock your hands around an opponent when you have control and both of you are considered down except in one form of grappling and that is Scholastic folk Style wrestling a USA exclusive

 

[-guerilla-]

I'm with you on the hand-clasping rule, but I think you're completely wrong about the folkstyle ruleset being a hindrance when transitioning to other grappling arts. I think folkstyle transitions to bjj far better than than freestyle because of the mat wrestling.

Let me clarify, I think the only problem with folk-style is the hand clasping rule...everything else about it makes it a fantastic transition to MMA however I would suggest the freestyle is better because it has more instinctual fight mechanics, when a fighter gets rocked or distracted by effective striking they often revert.... I use the spiral or navy ride all the time but when you're climbing on someone's back to put your hooks in there's nothing better then a hardcore Gable grip around their chest and upper-body and that's just not legal in folkstyle grappling and the finer points of control and balance are never mastered because you can't clasp your hands around a downed opponent folk Style.

 

[-guerilla-]

If you thinks folk-style is better provide a reason why?
Some people have cited riding time and I would concede it helps but not nearly as important as being able to clasp your hands on a downed opponent

 

[-guerilla-]

Because learning how to keep someone down without desperately hanging around the waist reaches one to control the hips and enables easier punching and ground and pound. Almost every freestyle only wrestler can’t keep anyone down in mma.
Additionally the reasons the US struggled for a while in freestyle had more to do with funding and training than folkstyle

As to Karelin, he lost because he came in relatively out of shape and might have been forced to come wrestle in 2000. A focused in shape Karelin doesn’t come down to locked hands

Freestyle athletes are not desperately hanging on around people's waists their masters of control and they're way better at putting their legs in then folk-style athletes because the turn is so much more valuable so the finer points of body control especially while lacing legs is better in freestyle and thus much more effective in MMA if you think freestyle wrestlers have a problem with control you should let khabib nurmagomedov know, he's never even heard folk style wrestling.

We invented our own rules instead of adopting the international style, thats why we do poorly in the Olympics. Of course funding is lacking because its diluted across 3 forms of wrestling and the only one you can get a scholarship in dosent exist outside of the USA!

Karelin lost because he was confused about a recent rule change, not because he was forced to break his grip or exaughstion. Even the officials had to confer on the call because THEY were confused.

The point is that changing the rules is detrimental to to the sport and should only be done in extreme circumstances not to try to make the sport more "exciting"

4min 10 sec

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

If you thinks folk-style is better provide a reason why?
Some people have cited riding time and I would concede it helps but not nearly as important as being able to clasp your hands on a downed opponent

I was taught folkstyle and I found that while I wasn't great at Pins I was fantastic at rides, breaking an opponent down and wrist control.
So I think it just has to do with my style.

I wasn't taught freestyle so I don't know what you mean by the clasping. Would you care to explain so I could understand.

 

[Based and White Pilled]

Let me clarify, I think the only problem with folk-style is the hand clasping rule...everything else about it makes it a fantastic transition to MMA however I would suggest the freestyle is better because it has more instinctual fight mechanics, when a fighter gets rocked or distracted by effective striking they often revert.... I use the spiral or navy ride all the time but when you're climbing on someone's back to put your hooks in there's nothing better then a hardcore Gable grip around their chest and upper-body and that's just not legal in folkstyle grappling and the finer points of control and balance are never mastered because you can't clasp your hands around a downed opponent folk Style.

I wrestled folkstyle for 5 years and don't have any issue with letting go of my grip when I hit the mat. I don't think the risk of letting go of a body lock is even close to outweighing the benefit of all the time spent on the mat in folkstyle. There is a reason that American wrestlers have a much better track record in becoming successful grapple monsters in MMA than non-American wrestlers.

 

[-guerilla-]

I was taught folkstyle and I found that while I wasn't great at Pins I was fantastic at rides, breaking an opponent down and wrist control.
So I think it just has to do with my style.

I wasn't taught freestyle so I don't know what you mean by the clasping. Would you care to explain so I could understand.

7min 10 sec

 

[-guerilla-]

I wrestled folkstyle for 5 years and don't have any issue with letting go of my grip when I hit the mat. I don't think the risk of letting go of a body lock is even close to outweighing the benefit of all the time spent on the mat in folkstyle. There is a reason that American wrestlers have a much better track record in becoming successful grapple monsters in MMA than non-American wrestlers.

I was raised internationally till 15 when we moved to the usa, my background was freestyle Greco and judo, I was extremely effective at putting in legs and figure 4. Folk guys sucked at leg rides and figure 4 because they couldent lock hands like the freestyle athlete and most fig 4 is illegal in folk.... IN MMA leg lacing and fig 4 is MASSIVELY CRITICAL TO MASTER...

Unless you trained from childhood in these Styles you are going to be less effective than those that do.

5 years ain't much in the internarional grappling community so your transition was probably easier than someone who has to do folk from birth

people like khabib train from childood in freestyle and submission and it shows!

 

[jack36767]

Freestyle athletes are not desperately hanging on around people's waists their masters of control and they're way better at putting their legs in then folk-style athletes because the turn is so much more valuable so the finer points of body control especially while lacing legs is better in freestyle and thus much more effective in MMA if you think freestyle wrestlers have a problem with control you should let khabib nurmagomedov know, he's never even heard folk style wrestling.

We invented our own rules instead of adopting the international style, thats why we do poorly in the Olympics. Of course funding is lacking because its diluted across 3 forms of wrestling and the only one you can get a scholarship in dosent exist outside of the USA!

Karelin lost because he was confused about a recent rule change, not because he was forced to break his grip or exaughstion. Even the officials had to confer on the call because THEY were confused.

The point is that changing the rules is detrimental to to the sport and should only be done in extreme circumstances not to try to make the sport more "exciting"

4min 10 sec

I said most and Khabib isn’t really a freestyle guy.. and lol at the technique misconceptions

 

[-guerilla-]

I said most and Khabib isn’t really a freestyle guy.. and lol at the technique misconceptions

Hmmmm, explain?

 

[jack36767]

Hmmmm, explain?

Leg riding is not better in freestyle, and you have to have more control to ride well. And you keep forgetting in freestyle you don’t have stop the guy from trying to get out from bottom

Additionally everyone conveniently ignores the fact Khabib trains with folkstyle wrestlers

Also additionally if you actually pay attention to current events the USA freestyle team is getting top 3 in worlds because..
1. Actual money so athletes can keep training
2. World champs are using folkstyle type turns and being creative to use them in freestyle
3. The reffing is slightly less corrupt.

The amount of medals the US would have if matches weren’t corrupted by bribed refs would shut up half of the people who talk shit on American wrestling alone

 

[-guerilla-]

Leg riding is not better in freestyle, and you have to have more control to ride well. And you keep forgetting in freestyle you don’t have stop the guy from trying to get out from bottom

Additionally everyone conveniently ignores the fact Khabib trains with folkstyle wrestlers

Also additionally if you actually pay attention to current events the USA freestyle team is getting top 3 in worlds because..
1. Actual money so athletes can keep training
2. World champs are using folkstyle type turns and being creative to use them in freestyle
3. The reffing is slightly less corrupt.

The amount of medals the US would have if matches weren’t corrupted by bribed refs would shut up half of the people who talk shit on American wrestling alone

All good points the international corruption in refereeing is pretty Epic

But bro there's no way you can suggest that folkStyle is better at putting legs in than freestyle and the figure 4 thing is HUGE!!!

I would argue that freestyle wrestlers have a major advantage in takedowns and control whereas folk-style wrestlers have a slight Edge in mat wrestling escapes however this gets negated when you go up against the good Jiu Jitsu guys.

you are more vulnerable down on the mat whereas a good freestyle wrestler is going to slam the guy and pound him out folk Style guys get overconfident down on the mat and often get tapped where as the freestyle guy will just stand up and then deliver another epic slam on his opponent. Plus when you see the folkstyle guys instinctively break their grip when they take down their opponent ....
Man it drives you crazy



..but they don't have folkstyle in Dagestan, I'm pretty sure khabibs background is freestyle primarily then sambo and Judo?
He most likely had a lot of exposure to boxing as well.

99% of Americans did a little folk style in high school and then did strip mall gi BJJ and kickboxing in two separate classes.

IMO the best possible mma combo (grapplng)..(except mma from birth) is sambo, real judo (not olympic) and freestyle...bjj=real judo