How much heavier than Helio was Kimura really? And Kimura lied about Waldemar Santana?

[Salves sod Iqueac]

According to Roberto Pedreira writer of Choque, Kato and Helio both weighed around 70 kg (154 lbs). According to Medhi, who according to Sylvio Behring hated the Gracies, Kimura weighed 80 kg, and we know that Kimura weighed 86 kilos for his final judo shiai in Tokyo in 1949.

And keep in mind that Kimura was the guy who described in his book "My Judo" that Waldemar Santana as a giant boxing champion.

"My opponent Adema Santana was a 25 year old black man, and was a boxing heavy weight champion. He was 4th dan in judo, and a capoeira champion as well. He was 183cm had a well proportioned impressive physique. His weight was close to 100kg. "

Keep in mind that Kimura's lie is among other things used to describe the Wkipedia page talking about Santana

Here is a picture of Santana.

 

[QingTian]

Do you have any other evidence that man was the same Santana?

 

[Ryo]

You always trying to twist everything as usual. Several sources have Santana listed as around 94 KGs and trained in Boxing and capoeira... was the story stretched? Yea maybe abit.. is that news worthy? Kimura was in the pro wrestling circuit. There were worked matches and characters selling a story everywhere. That was part of the gig. It made money.

Gracie marketing is good as well.

 

[RJ Green]

"Oh wow, I can't wait to read the 12th Salves sod Iqueac shitpost in 19 days," said nobody. Ever.

 

[AI fanboy]

He was tree times his size

 

[Ishaq]

Helio, from the pictures looks even lighter than 154lb. He looks like he's 140lb.

I'm 137lb and he doesn't look much heavier than me.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Do you have any other evidence that man was the same Santana?

Yes, you can simply search for Waldemar on google. It's him.

Helio, from the pictures looks even lighter than 154lb. He looks like he's 140lb.

I'm 137lb and he doesn't look much heavier than me.

I don't know about that, but Medhi, who hated the Gracies and went so far as to say that Marcelo Behring is better on the ground than Rickson stated that the difference was 10 kilos, so it could very well have been more since he is not a reliable source.

 

[kpoz12]

in case no one has figured this out yet: literally every Martial Arts hero of the past exaggerated/lied/fabricated/twisted details about their accomplishments, the size and skill of their opponents, etc.

Even as recently as a few years ago, you still had certain BJJ heroes claiming to be 350-0 on their official websites, or, another guy I was under claimed he was 3-0 in MMA and had photos from a fight that he actually LOST via TKO on his webpage (he took it all down when the guy that beat him uploaded the full video to YouTube, lol).

Martial Artists (yes, even Jiu Jitsu ones) are the ultimate Fishermen; "honour, respect, leverage, size beating brute strength" are the ultimate bait.

Say whatever you will about the rise of Modern MMA, but it is the first time in history where people (for the most part) cannot bullshit their way into being a Martial Arts legend; everything is there for the world to see: heights, weights, records, and what actually happened in the damn fight, lol.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

in case no one has figured this out yet: literally every Martial Arts hero of the past exaggerated/lied/fabricated/twisted details about their accomplishments, the size and skill of their opponents, etc.

And honestly, I can accept that. I do not care. Still, the information that Kimura, or others, lied is worth divulging.

 

[QingTian]

Yes, you can simply search for Waldemar on google. It's him.

Are there any photos of this Waldemar fighting Kimura? Sure, circumstantially Adema sounds like Waldemar and there is some description of past events matching, but how do we know for sure?

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Are there any photos of this Waldemar fighting Kimura? Sure, circumstantially Adema sounds like Waldemar and there is some description of past events matching, but how do we know for sure?

Are you kidding? Sigh, mate look for the work of the historian Elton Silva on the subject. I don't know if it has been translated into English but here is the book in Portuguese.

https://www.amazon.com.br/MUITO-ANTES-MMA-precursores-formadoras-ebook/dp/B084T7K2V9

I can't help you with more than that. Good luck.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Are there any photos of this Waldemar fighting Kimura? Sure, circumstantially Adema sounds like Waldemar and there is some description of past events matching, but how do we know for sure?

In "My Judo" by MASAHIKO KIMURA, he also describes the same "Adema Santana" as someone who fought and beat Helio Gracie. Therefore, confirming that it is Waldemar Santana.

"Helio Gracie, whom I had previously fought, was the champion in Vale Tudo. But Adema Santana challenged him the previous year (Note: 1957), and after 2 hours and 10 min, Helio got kicked in the abdomen, could not get up , and got knocked out. "

Now i indeed can't help you with more than that. Good luck.

 

[TheMaster]

Helio invented leverage, Archemides was just a forerunner.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Waldemar vs Ivan Gomes fight, Waldemar showing his Judo and Boxing skills ... kinda.

 

[listrahtes]

in case no one has figured this out yet: literally every Martial Arts hero of the past exaggerated/lied/fabricated/twisted details about their accomplishments, the size and skill of their opponents, etc.

Even as recently as a few years ago, you still had certain BJJ heroes claiming to be 350-0 on their official websites, or, another guy I was under claimed he was 3-0 in MMA and had photos from a fight that he actually LOST via TKO on his webpage (he took it all down when the guy that beat him uploaded the full video to YouTube, lol).

Martial Artists (yes, even Jiu Jitsu ones) are the ultimate Fishermen; "honour, respect, leverage, size beating brute strength" are the ultimate bait.

Say whatever you will about the rise of Modern MMA, but it is the first time in history where people (for the most part) cannot bullshit their way into being a Martial Arts legend; everything is there for the world to see: heights, weights, records, and what actually happened in the damn fight, lol.

Agree 100% but there were always martial arts close to imune to all the lies and postering. Boxing , wrestling and MT f.e. were it really was about showing your skills on an even playing field. Its also a cultural thing. Hong Kong to this day has so many bullshido fanatics its kinda funny.

In the end the people who "just" live the fight aspect in a competitive environment like mexican boxers, european / cuban wrestlers...etc are often the most true to martial arts philosophy contraire to the ones always talking about it.

With Gracies, many are just scum regarding their character be that Rickson, Ryan. Renzo..etc. No matter which ma they would have always lied, backstabbed..etc.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Agree 100% but there were always martial arts close to imune to all the lies and postering. Boxing , wrestling and MT f.e. were it really was about showing your skills on an even playing field. Its also a cultural thing. Hong Kong to this day has so many bullshido fanatics its kinda funny.

In the end the people who "just" live the fight aspect in a competitive environment like mexican boxers, european / cuban wrestlers...etc are often the most true to martial arts philosophy contraire to the ones always talking about it.

With Gracies, many are just scum regarding their character be that Rickson, Ryan. Renzo..etc. No matter which ma they would have always lied, backstabbed..etc.

"immune to all lies and posturing" Boxing? You know boxing is rotten, right? In the sense of corrupt? And that many fighters fabricate their success, etc. Even because of gambling and everything ...

"With Gracies, many are just scum regarding their character be that Rickson, Ryan. Renzo..etc. No matter which ma they would have always lied, backstabbed..etc."

Search well and you will find horrible things about boxers too. Rape, racism, threat of death by firearm, etc. ...

And this isn't about the Gracies either, it's about Kimura in the first place ...

"In the end the people who "just" live the fight aspect in a competitive environment like mexican boxers, european / cuban wrestlers...etc are often the most true to martial arts philosophy contraire to the ones always talking about it."

The Gracies only talk now? Or Kimura?

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Kimura's weight of about 80 kg you can get from many judo tournament records, its not in question.

If he lied about other people's weight, as the Gracies did about his, is another question. I think they were all hyping fights, perhaps even working together to come up with stories that sell (ie more people watching is better for them, so why not exaggerate?).

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

With the right amount of leverage, Helio could lift the world

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

If he lied about other people's weight, as the Gracies did about his, is another question. I think they were all hyping fights, perhaps even working together to come up with stories that sell (ie more people watching is better for them, so why not exaggerate?).

He did lie. And it wasn't to hype the fight, it was in his book that he write much later.

With the right amount of leverage, Helio could lift the world

Helio I don't know, but maybe Kimura could

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

He did lie. And it wasn't to hype the fight, it was in his book that he write much later.

If it was in his book and untrue, then it is a lie. Seems to be a common feature of the time. The Gracies claimed Kimura was 40 kg heavier than Helio, which would have made him 110 kg (and this despite a long series of official judo weigh-ins that put Kimura at 80 kg, or just a quick glance at Kimura would show that at 110 kg he'd be clinically obese).

I wonder if this is a case of Kimura and the Gracies telling lies to hype for so long that they forgot they were lies (ie if you tell the same lie often enough you might forget that its a lie).