How much heavier than Helio was Kimura really? And Kimura lied about Waldemar Santana?

AnotherOldGuy said:
If it was in his book and untrue, then it is a lie. Seems to be a common feature of the time. The Gracies claimed Kimura was 40 kg heavier than Helio, which would have made him 110 kg (and this despite a long series of official judo weigh-ins that put Kimura at 80 kg, or just a quick glance at Kimura would show that at 110 kg he'd be clinically obese).

I wonder if this is a case of Kimura and the Gracies telling lies to hype for so long that they forgot they were lies (ie if you tell the same lie often enough you might forget that its a lie).
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I don't know :) :) :) :) :)
 
Hey,
Salves sod Iqueac

I'm sorry that you have issues with Judo and bjj origins. I agree with you, that statement bjj = "basically just judo" is annoying and not fun.
It should be called "basically just judo newaza"


I bet this some kind of inferiority complex :)

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) (here's your ton of smiles behind of which you can hide your hurt)
 
People are wondering if Kimura could or could not trash most men of his era who are +-20kg than him? He beat Santana. If there's an argument by the BJJ cult that he only lost because he was smaller, then they should have sent someone bigger.
See if that helps.
Marcelo Garcia, Jacare, Kurzhev, Sadulaev, and thousands of others can trash scores of opponents who are +-30kg in this time and age, when the level of athleticism is much higher and the number of high level and elite practitioners is exponentially higher than they were back in the day.

Is the thread actually about how most people embellish their accomplishments? What's wrong with that?
 
Gabicho said:
He beat Santana.
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No, he didn't.

joyoca9897 said:
Hey,
Salves sod Iqueac

I'm sorry that you have issues with Judo and bjj origins. I agree with you, that statement bjj = "basically just judo" is annoying and not fun.
It should be called "basically just judo newaza"


I bet this some kind of inferiority complex :)

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) (here's your ton of smiles behind of which you can hide your hurt)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the attention bro. Please always feel welcome to comment on my threads. Much love to you.
 
Yes he did beat him. He submitter Santana the first match.
 
Damn. I guess the Grappling Forum is really dead these days, huh?

Man, I remember when there was a lot of worthwhile discussion on here.

That must have been 15 years ago. Time goes by, things change.
 
Ryo said:
Yes he did beat him. He submitter Santana the first match.
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A grappling only match. In judogis.

Cool RoboCop Gun said:
Damn. I guess the Grappling Forum is really dead these days, huh?

Man, I remember when there was a lot of worthwhile discussion on here.

That must have been 15 years ago. Time goes by, things change.
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Reddit took over, I suppose.
 
Ryo said:
So? He still beat him. You tried to do the twisting and lying that you usually do and claim he didnt lose to Kimura. Guess a google search was too difficult for you.
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No "twisting and lying", the thread is about Kimura lying about Santana's weight ... what he did.

And ad hominem again Ryo? You are not young, based on how long you have been in sherdog, so this type of behavior is just sad.

Kimura beat Santana, in a grappling match with Judogis on ...

But couldn't even throw Santana in the MMA fight without the gi, and resorted to striking, Kimura knew Karate and boxing. The fight ended in a draw because there was a time limit but there were no points, we know several fights of this type from the beginning of MMA. And he lied about Santana's weight.

He did lied about Santana's weight. Soon this thread.

Need any further explanation, Ryo?
 
Salves sod Iqueac said:
No "twisting and lying", the thread is about Kimura lying about Santana's weight ... what he did.

And ad hominem again Ryo? You are not young, based on how long you have been in sherdog, so this type of behavior is just sad.

Kimura beat Santana, in a grappling match with Judogis on ...

But couldn't even throw Santana in the MMA fight without the gi, and resorted to striking, Kimura knew Karate and boxing. The fight ended in a draw because there was a time limit but there were no points, we know several fights of this type from the beginning of MMA. And he lied about Santana's weight.

He did lied about Santana's weight. Soon this thread.

Need any further explanation, Ryo?
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You are literally lying about what you just said. You quoted that person saying that Santana did not lose to Kimura. You did not specify that it had to be vale tudo. The fact is you were careless and didnt even bother to check that he was submitted by Kimura. So then you tried to twist it and say somehow because they were wearing gis and it was a grappling match, that somehow makes a difference. This makes you look even dumber than usual. You are a joke in this forum.

I mean saying they were wearing Judogis is absolutely meaningless. They were wearing Judogis in the Helios match as well you moron. Both Santana and Helio challenged Kimura to a submission grappling match in the gi and they both got submitted. End of story.

The fact that Kimura drew with Santana in a Vale Tudo match is absolutely meaningless. Kimura was not a Vale Tudo fighter. As far I'm aware that was his only Vale Tudo fight ever. He is a grappler.

1. He did not want to take that match if you read his story. He was basically forced into it. Dabbling in some l boxing and Katate does not make you a vale tudo fighter. Santana was a seasoned Vale Tudo fighter. Kimura had 0 experience and still drew with him. That fight was almost entirely a striking match with little grappling exchanges. Kimura makes it clear that he was dazed from open strikes and headbuts for much of the fight. If you knew anything about grappling or fighting (which you've made very clear you dont) trying to execute your strengths in that kindof situation with no experience is extremely difficult. We've seen this many times in MMA with high level grapplers. Kimura was the superior grappler obviously, but he had no experience in Vale Tudo.

Use you brain moron.
 
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Ryo said:
You are literally lying about what you just said. You quoted that person saying that Santana did not lose to Kimura. You did not specify that it had to be vale tudo. The fact is you were careless and didnt even bother to check that he was submitted by Kimura. So then you tried to twist it and say somehow because they were wearing gis and it was a grappling match, that somehow makes a difference. This makes you look even dumber than usual. You are a joke in this forum.

I mean saying they were wearing Judogis is absolutely meaningless. They were wearing Judogis in the Helios match as well you moron. Both Santana and Helio challenged Kimura to a submission grappling match in the gi and they both got submitted. End of story.

The fact that Kimura drew with Santana in a Vale Tudo match is absolutely meaningless. Kimura was not a Vale Tudo fighter. As far I'm aware that was his only Vale Tudo fight ever. He is a grappler.

1. He did not want to take that match if you read his story. He was basically forced into it. Dabbling in some l boxing and Katate does not make you a vale tudo fighter. Santana was a seasoned Vale Tudo fighter. Kimura had 0 experience and still drew with him. That fight was almost entirely a striking match with little grappling exchanges. Kimura makes it clear that he was dazed from open strikes and headbuts for much of the fight. If you knew anything about grappling or fighting (which you've made very clear you dont) trying to execute your strengths in that kindof situation with no experience is extremely difficult. We've seen this many times in MMA with high level grapplers. Kimura was the superior grappler obviously, but he had no experience in Vale Tudo.

Use you brain moron.
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So many ad hominem, how pathetic. Kimura did beat Santana in a grappling only match, in judogis. But not in an MMA one.

Kimura also, and that's the reason for this thread, lied about Santana's weight.

"Santana was a boxing heavy weight champion. He was 183cm. Capoeira champion. etc." No. He was not. All lies. Soon this thread.

Need any further explanation, Ryo? It will be a pleasure to explain to you.
 
Salves sod Iqueac said:
According to Roberto Pedreira writer of Choque, Kato and Helio both weighed around 70 kg (154 lbs). According to Medhi, who according to Sylvio Behring hated the Gracies, Kimura weighed 80 kg, and we know that Kimura weighed 86 kilos for his final judo shiai in Tokyo in 1949.

And keep in mind that Kimura was the guy who described in his book "My Judo" that Waldemar Santana as a giant boxing champion.

"My opponent Adema Santana was a 25 year old black man, and was a boxing heavy weight champion. He was 4th dan in judo, and a capoeira champion as well. He was 183cm had a well proportioned impressive physique. His weight was close to 100kg. "

Keep in mind that Kimura's lie is among other things used to describe the Wkipedia page talking about Santana :)

Here is a picture of Santana.

waldemar-jpg.778168
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all the gracies lie except maybe some of carlos or carlsons line. all the helio kids lie
 
Gotta say I find it a bit odd how everyone still obsesses about these ancient matches. I mean history is neat, but does it really matter all that much how these individual matches turned out? Grappling has come sooooo far since then - Roger Gracie or Gordon Ryan would sub any 3 fighters of that era simultaneously in like a minute.
 
sb413197 said:
Gotta say I find it a bit odd how everyone still obsesses about these ancient matches. I mean history is neat, but does it really matter all that much how these individual matches turned out? Grappling has come sooooo far since then - Roger Gracie or Gordon Ryan would sub any 3 fighters of that era simultaneously in like a minute.
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There would be no Roger Gracie or Gordan Ryan without these historic figures. That's why.

I'm sure Roger Gracie would agree.

Whether Roger or Gordon would sub any of them is absolutely meaningless....
 
Ryo said:
There would be no Roger Gracie or Gordan Ryan without these historic figures. That's why.

I'm sure Roger Gracie would agree.

Whether Roger or Gordon would sub any of them is absolutely meaningless....
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Oh yeah I totally agree that they are super important historical figures and deserve a lot of attention from that view - I just find it odd THE SPECIFIC WAY that people obsess over their competitive performances and talk about them - people are obviously very invested in the results of these old matches. It's...very odd...well beyond historical interest and intrigue, and it seems a lot of people almost believe that the results of those competitive performances say something about the value of the martial art as a whole - and I really disagree with that because both Judo and BJJ have changed so much since then, and produced vastly superior grapplers.
 
Ryo said:
You are literally lying about what you just said. You quoted that person saying that Santana did not lose to Kimura. You did not specify that it had to be vale tudo. The fact is you were careless and didnt even bother to check that he was submitted by Kimura. So then you tried to twist it and say somehow because they were wearing gis and it was a grappling match, that somehow makes a difference. This makes you look even dumber than usual. You are a joke in this forum.

I mean saying they were wearing Judogis is absolutely meaningless. They were wearing Judogis in the Helios match as well you moron. Both Santana and Helio challenged Kimura to a submission grappling match in the gi and they both got submitted. End of story.

The fact that Kimura drew with Santana in a Vale Tudo match is absolutely meaningless. Kimura was not a Vale Tudo fighter. As far I'm aware that was his only Vale Tudo fight ever. He is a grappler.

1. He did not want to take that match if you read his story. He was basically forced into it. Dabbling in some l boxing and Katate does not make you a vale tudo fighter. Santana was a seasoned Vale Tudo fighter. Kimura had 0 experience and still drew with him. That fight was almost entirely a striking match with little grappling exchanges. Kimura makes it clear that he was dazed from open strikes and headbuts for much of the fight. If you knew anything about grappling or fighting (which you've made very clear you dont) trying to execute your strengths in that kindof situation with no experience is extremely difficult. We've seen this many times in MMA with high level grapplers. Kimura was the superior grappler obviously, but he had no experience in Vale Tudo.

Use you brain moron.
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Did kimura lie about santanas size? Yes or no?
 
Well you gotta forgive kinura because after taking on the bbc that was santana, his guts turned to mush.
 
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