How Many Fighters Have You Honestly Picked to Beat Jones

[SuperAlly]

"How Many Threads Have You Honestly Started In The Past 48 Hours Defending Jones From Any And All Valid Criticisms And Questions"

 

[Doctor Grudge]

There absolutely is no such goddamn thing as a stereotype brought over from boxing. There is a MATTER OF FACT OF THE CULTURE which was adopted from culture. You trying to explain to me why the UFC who will do anything they can to make sure PFL absolutely does not have the number 1 HW is nonsense friend. It’s not about your feelings on the matter and it would be HIGHLY narcissistic of you to interject yours in it as if that changes the clear direction the ufc is moving with the HW division. I’m sorry Sir that makes no sense

The biggest draws in MMA are not heavyweights, and for most of the UFC's history their heavyweight division was lackluster, and the company grew into a multi billion dollar company without any extra emphasis on heavyweights.

That isn't "narcissism", make a list of the biggest draws in MMA and/or the UFC, and see how many of them are heavyweights - case and point (Brock Lesnar is basically the only one the UFC had).



To answer your question about the PFL, the UFC offered Francis Ngannou a lot of money because they wanted him to fight Jon Jones. It isn't because they thought PFL having Ngannou would make them a threat to the UFC - you have to be incredibly naieve of both media and finance to think that. The PFL even with Ngannou is an absolutely tiny organization, not just compared to the UFC, but compared to many no-name companies.



And you even just cited Ngannou in the PFL, well, has Ngannou drawn massive ratings for the PFL? People know who Francis is (because of boxing where heavyweights matter WAY more for drawing power), but have no idea what the PFL is.



I mean you're talking about heavyweights being the most important thing in the UFC, when the UFC never signed the GOAT heavyweight (I'm aware they tried) and quite frankly, it made no difference to their progression. In fact, if Fedor had signed with the UFC, he would be the B-Side to Randy Courture (most people see him as a LHW) in their attempted fight.




Heavyweights are not the biggest draws in MMA, much less the UFC. Pretty much no org revolves their marketing scheme around a heavyweight division. As I ended with before, 205 was ALWAYS more popular than 265. 170 and 155 are the backbones and have the biggest draws both consistently and peak wise.

 

[Mind Mine]

The biggest draws in MMA are not heavyweights, and for most of the UFC's history their heavyweight division was lackluster, and the company grew into a multi billion dollar company without any extra emphasis on heavyweights.

That isn't "narcissism", make a list of the biggest draws in MMA and/or the UFC, and see how many of them are heavyweights - case and point (Brock Lesnar is basically the only one the UFC had).



To answer your question about the PFL, the UFC offered Francis Ngannou a lot of money because they wanted him to fight Jon Jones. It isn't because they thought PFL having Ngannou would make them a threat to the UFC - you have to be incredibly naieve of both media and finance to think that. The PFL even with Ngannou is an absolutely tiny organization, not just compared to the UFC, but compared to many no-name companies.



And you even just cited Ngannou in the PFL, well, has Ngannou drawn massive ratings for the PFL? People know who Francis is (because of boxing where heavyweights matter WAY more for drawing power), but have no idea what the PFL is.



I mean you're talking about heavyweights being the most important thing in the UFC, when the UFC never signed the GOAT heavyweight (I'm aware they tried) and quite frankly, it made no difference to their progression. In fact, if Fedor had signed with the UFC, he would be the B-Side to Randy Courture (most people see him as a LHW) in their attempted fight.




Heavyweights are not the biggest draws in MMA, much less the UFC. Pretty much no org revolves their marketing scheme around a heavyweight division. As I ended with before, 205 was ALWAYS more popular than 265. 170 and 155 are the backbones and have the biggest draws both consistently and peak wise.

There has never been a split second in the history of the company they have not fought to make sure they had the best HE organization. That isn’t my opinion that’s exactly what the game is. If you analyze EVERYTHING from that aspect and view this Jones situation that Dana would kill before having a second tier organization you have a clue of the vision. Until then you are talking about how you think things are while ignoring the direction things are going

 

[Doctor Grudge]

There has never been a split second in the history of the company they have not fought to make sure they had the best HE organization. That isn’t my opinion that’s exactly what the game is. If you analyze EVERYTHING from that aspect and view this Jones situation that Dana would kill before having a second tier organization you have a clue of the vision. Until then you are talking about how you think things are while ignoring the direction things are going

Yes there has been. If what you were saying is true then Pride and Strikeforce would not have acquired the talents they did. Mark Coleman and Josh Barnett did not end up in Pride (and eventually Strikeforce for Barnett) because they were demanding a Kings ransom.







What size/weight (2 or 3 of these guys may have had more fights at open/heavyweight due to circumstance of their time) class do most people consider

Tito Ortiz
Ken Shamrock
Chuck Liddell
Randy Courture
Daniel Cormier
Jon Jones
Shogun Rua
Kazushi Sakuraba
Kiyoshi Tamura
Wanderlei Silva
Forrest Grifin
Rampage Jackson
Alex Peireira
Jiří Procházka
Frank Shamrock
Dan Henderson
Lyoto Machida
Vitor Belfort



That is just 205. Try doing that with heavyweight and you might name fantastic fighters, but not guys as marketed well like Quinton Jackson or Forrest, or guys who were the literal figureheads of their orgs like Chuck Liddell and Wanderlei Silva. The two biggest names in MMA are Alex Peiriera and Jon Jones (unless you think Jon Jones is famous because of his 2 heavyweight fights lol).


Come on bro, I love Werdum, Junior Dos Santos, Alistair Overeem and the like, but it's a huge difference. You're comparing Chuck and Ortiz to fucking Arvloski and Sylvia - think about that.

That's not even getting into Rousey, Khabib, McGregor or the tiers below that like Porioir, Nick Diaz, Nate Diaz, GSP - even today Khazmat and Topuria are bigger stars than Tom Aspinall.


You're massively overrating the importance of the heavyweight division's marketing power. I mean...it is flat out just not true. Hell, prove me wrong right here. Name the heavyweights who you high on UFC cards. One of the highly ranked heavyweights on the last PPV fought on the EARLY prelims. Not even the Prelims.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

What are we even talking about here? The UFC's GOAT heavyweight is Stipe, and he is FAMOUS for not being FAMOUS in the MMA community. The average person has no idea who Stipe is, and this fight with Jon Jones is the most publicity he has ever gotten. Stipe has almost no fandom among the MMA community despite having the most impressive HW resume in the UFC's entire history.

The UFC has never gave a chit about Stipe which is why they had no problems jobbing him to Jon Jones.

And that's the GOAT heavyweight. If you compared Stipe to every UFC GOAT (fighting wise), he is the both the least famous and least marketable bar Demetrius Johnson despite his division being the oldest. You think I'm just making that up?

 

[Mind Mine]

Yes there has been. If what you were saying is true then Pride and Strikeforce would not have acquired the talents they did. Mark Coleman and Josh Barnett did not end up in Pride (and eventually Strikeforce for Barnett) because they were demanding a Kings ransom.







What size/weight (2 or 3 of these guys may have had more fights at open/heavyweight due to circumstance of their time) class do most people consider

Tito Ortiz
Ken Shamrock
Chuck Liddell
Randy Courture
Daniel Cormier
Jon Jones
Shogun Rua
Kazushi Sakuraba
Kiyoshi Tamura
Wanderlei Silva
Forrest Grifin
Rampage Jackson
Alex Peireira
Jiří Procházka
Frank Shamrock
Dan Henderson
Lyoto Machida
Vitor Belfort



That is just 205. Try doing that with heavyweight and you might name fantastic fighters, but not guys as marketed well like Quinton Jackson or Forrest, or guys who were the literal figureheads of their orgs like Chuck Liddell and Wanderlei Silva. The two biggest names in MMA are Alex Peiriera and Jon Jones (unless you think Jon Jones is famous because of his 2 heavyweight fights lol).


Come on bro, I love Werdum, Junior Dos Santos, Alistair Overeem and the like, but it's a huge difference. You're comparing Chuck and Ortiz to fucking Arvloski and Sylvia - think about that.

That's not even getting into Rousey, Khabib, McGregor or the tiers below that like Porioir, Nick Diaz, Nate Diaz, GSP - even today Khazmat and Topuria are bigger stars than Tom Aspinall.


You're massively overrating the importance of the heavyweight division's marketing power. I mean...it is flat out just not true. Hell, prove me wrong right here. Name the heavyweights who you high on UFC cards. One of the highly ranked heavyweights on the last PPV fought on the EARLY prelims. Not even the Prelims.

No Sir you really typed a ton of nothing because in all of that you typed you simply were unable to type in the past 20 years when the UFC did not have the number 1 HW division. If you would like to say at a time Strikeforce did you also do understand the UFC made sure to acquire every last one. Again you seem to be ignoring the obvious direction the company is going and some of the odd things they are doing to insure the organization with Ngannou does not surpass them. You are typing frantically when it’s simply fact if you are honest with yourself that the UFC are positioning themselves at every turn to compete with Ngannou while you inexplicably type this nonsense that HW isn’t important. In the forest of your skull it isn’t important Sir. According to the movements statements and every discernible inference imaginable to the UFC it fucking is

 

[Mind Mine]

Yes there has been. If what you were saying is true then Pride and Strikeforce would not have acquired the talents they did. Mark Coleman and Josh Barnett did not end up in Pride (and eventually Strikeforce for Barnett) because they were demanding a Kings ransom.







What size/weight (2 or 3 of these guys may have had more fights at open/heavyweight due to circumstance of their time) class do most people consider

Tito Ortiz
Ken Shamrock
Chuck Liddell
Randy Courture
Daniel Cormier
Jon Jones
Shogun Rua
Kazushi Sakuraba
Kiyoshi Tamura
Wanderlei Silva
Forrest Grifin
Rampage Jackson
Alex Peireira
Jiří Procházka
Frank Shamrock
Dan Henderson
Lyoto Machida
Vitor Belfort



That is just 205. Try doing that with heavyweight and you might name fantastic fighters, but not guys as marketed well like Quinton Jackson or Forrest, or guys who were the literal figureheads of their orgs like Chuck Liddell and Wanderlei Silva. The two biggest names in MMA are Alex Peiriera and Jon Jones (unless you think Jon Jones is famous because of his 2 heavyweight fights lol).


Come on bro, I love Werdum, Junior Dos Santos, Alistair Overeem and the like, but it's a huge difference. You're comparing Chuck and Ortiz to fucking Arvloski and Sylvia - think about that.

That's not even getting into Rousey, Khabib, McGregor or the tiers below that like Porioir, Nick Diaz, Nate Diaz, GSP - even today Khazmat and Topuria are bigger stars than Tom Aspinall.


You're massively overrating the importance of the heavyweight division's marketing power. I mean...it is flat out just not true. Hell, prove me wrong right here. Name the heavyweights who you high on UFC cards. One of the highly ranked heavyweights on the last PPV fought on the EARLY prelims. Not even the Prelims.

Factually and respectfully I will conclude this interaction because although you not an unpleasant person you type things as if you don’t understand the point and a little too much for my liking being you miss the whole point. Francis Ngannou has created a situation that any fool can see Dana wants to win at all costs. You typing to me as if this isn’t a damn fact is insulting to not me but to the laws of reality Sir. I have no time for it as time is money and I’ve given enough of mine I care to give for free

 

[Doctor Grudge]

The point wasn't talking about when the UFC did not have the #1 division. It's about how important it is to drawing money, which they're not that important.

Also, utterly bizarre even trying to challenge someone in stating "when did the UFC never have the #1 hw division". Strikeforce had a better HW division and Pride had a better one for nearly their entire existence. Even if you're a UFC fanboy or are ignorant of earlier eras, with some research you'd have to concede that it was at the very least debatable their divisions were better. If Affliction's two events count, then they had better heavyweights also (they literally had two recent UFC champs under their banner lmao)


Kai Asukara, guy literally fighting at flyweight for his debut, is a bigger name in Japan than any heavyweight today is internationally (and if you disagree, then his brother definitely is). You just don't know that much about this aspect of MMA, and the reason why I took a negative tone with you is because you started talking a bunch of silliness about narcissism.

You can't engage or deny any of my points, probably because they're correct. Heavyweight isn't that important to the UFC or to MMA. Their primary utility is to put a few fat boys on the undercard so they can swang and bang for crowd pops.

Ranked HW's are supplements in the UFC not draws.

 

[Herwald]

Besides Chael, zero.

 

[FlyingDeathKick]

I've picked Aspinall and Ngannou to beat him, aside from that I never picked anybody to beat him. I was shocked that his first fight with DC was even competitive considering he had a 12" reach advantage on DC.

 

[nintey]

None, DC is the only one I thought might stand a chance.

 

[Khaosan]

I actually put money on Machida way back when and when he off balanced Jones with a straight left I nearly jizzed.

We know how the rest played out

 

[DoctorStoppage]

Only Shogun

 

[fishbisquit]

Around 2009 or so, instead of gsp vs silva, do silva vs jones, because I thought that might be the only guy at that time that Could beat him.

 

[lefthighkick01]

I picked

Shogun ( only cause he was far more experienced and Jon never fought that level of comp)
Gus (I thought the size was even and he had the boxing and TDD)

And I am picking Aspinal.

Gus beat Jones imo.

 

[Harlekin]

Actually none.
Some of his opponents looked better against him than before.
Gave DC, Rumble, Gus II and Gane a chance below 30%

 

[Gamer007]

I was rooting like hell for Rampage, but honestly, I just didn't want Rampage to lose.


Probably the Gane fight is the only one, and can you blame me? No fighter has ever taken 3 years off and went up 60lb to win the HW title, he clearly wasn't even in great shape. It seemed like he had everything going against him in that fight. I would've bet my last dollar he couldn't make that fight look easy, and he goes out there and makes the #1 HW look EASY. Everyone knew Jon had a big advantage on the ground, but I don't think anyone honestly thought he wouldn't even get touched, no way.

Everything about that Gane fight was screaming loss, even when Jon did his walkout the commission wouldn't let him enter the cage before clipping the tape on his foot.

 

[nostradumbass]

Wanted DC to beat him, and gave both fights about a 50/50, but actually favoring the opponent to win would have been a long time ago with Machida, and I thought Shogun would chew up his legs with kicks, but he only ended up throwing 1 leg kick the whole fight.

 

[Greyscale]

I honestly picked Shogun

 

[michi972]

Gane I did expect to beat him thinking he wouldn't transition to HW well, otherwise I can't remember favoring anyone that he fought
Also Tom if that fight ever happens

Same