How come Max is still in his prime but people say that Aldo was past prime when he fought Volk?

[El Fernas]

Then we've got Jon Jones who's at 16 years.

HW is special when it comes to age, LHW plays a similar game, when Jones left old man Glover was champion, Jan who wasnt that young was champion too, Pereira himself isnt in his 20's either, the lighter weight classes are way less forgiving, hence the stat for champions at 35 and above is pretty bad.

 

[moreorless87]

HW is special when it comes to age, LHW plays a similar game, when Jones left old man Glover was champion, Jan who wasnt that young was champion too, Pereira himself isnt in his 20's either, the lighter weight classes are way less forgiving, hence the stat for champions at 35 and above is pretty bad.

I tend to think part of it is about the talent base, the higher divisions tend to "lean old" because their becoming progressively weaker so depend more on previous talent and talent which has filtered more though other sports.

Aldo was I think showing SOME decline pre Max but I think style did play a big part in that fight, Aldo's game tended to be to keep opponents at distance picking away with jabs(and lowkicks before injuries) and maybe setting up a finish but Max being a very aggressive volume puncher(and a big guy with a strong chin) simply didnt give him the space he needed,

 

[bongwater]

people like to make excuses, like when hendo crushed fedor like a bug and exposed him people her suddenly said he was past his prime even though heno was older.

 

[markg171]

I like how Aldo is fighting in 2 weeks and everybody's in here shitting on him.

 

[Ladder Master]

A fighters Prime can be extended or reduced as often as necessary for Sherdog arguments.

 

[WhiteMousse]

My prime is way beyond your prime. How many times have you been knocked out, loser? That's got to be like 10 now. You might as well retire.

In fact I just got another prime while we were talking. I want you guys to call me Primus from now on. Holy shit a wild prime just flew over my house

 

[marvinparsons]

I've played amateur sports with guys that are noticeabley slower/useless at 28, even being in good shape. And others that are still going strong into their late thirties. Different people are different.

It also depends on your strengths/weaknesses. Some age better than others.

 

[markg171]

HW is special when it comes to age, LHW plays a similar game, when Jones left old man Glover was champion, Jan who wasnt that young was champion too, Pereira himself isnt in his 20's either, the lighter weight classes are way less forgiving, hence the stat for champions at 35 and above is pretty bad.

I'd almost argue that that's not really a prime issue but an ego issue.

Heavier fighters feel the effects of aging more as they're bigger, and the danger's perceived to be higher given the power up there. So they're more likely to adapt to be able to stick around. They know they can't strike or wrestle like they used to so are more likely not to. Arlovski sure as fuck doesn't fight like he used to as he knows he can't.

A lot of the lighter fighters still feel they're as fast as ever and don't necessarily worry as much about getting KO'd given the power's lower. So they still fight the same as ever even though that's a terrible idea, prime or not (tape accumulates on you regardless). A guy like Frankie's later losses are all pretty much because he kept fighting exactly the same as he always had and so kept getting caught. He'd slown down and his chin was worse sure, but his opponents also knew exactly how he was going to fight so that just exacerbated it.

Obviously everybody's different, but the light vs heavier debate's often just used as a catch all to ignore whether the fighters themselves are ever actually evolving to even handle it. You just don't see lighter guys try and fight a more slow downed style that befits their current abilities like heavier fighters do.

 

[orca]

how many titles does max have ?

 

[Tweak896]

Aldo was still a major threat, but less of one after he had to stop his kicks for whatever reason, probably was injury. Still his TDD + boxing was pretty good for a high level and he even ended his career looking amazing against Merab. I think prime is something that gets added in hindsight, there are plenty of fighters that ebb and flow in highs and lows throughout their career.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Imo more of a testament to his technical brilliance than his athletic prime. Bernard Hopkins won a belt at like 50, doesn't mean he was in his prime, he was just a fuckin chess master.

Aldo is one of the most well rounded and technically sound fighters in the sport. He's a problem for anyone ever lol

He basically future-proofed his skillset by getting so good at boxing, TDD, and dealing with leg kicks.

Aldo won a lot of fights but the competition wasn't at an all time best, then the losses really urt him as they were pretty bad, Conor KO and brutal beatdowns by max.

However his longevity is quite admirable as he is still able to keep the mid tier division in check whilst probably still losing to the champs.

Aldo's competition is as strong as any GOAT candidate. Wins over Faber, Edgar x2, Mendes x2, and KZ is nothing to scoff at.

 

[Gamer007]

And the other nuance is that you have guys like Aldo who evolve technically, even when their physical attributes degrade.

The young, leg-smashing Aldo didn't have all the elements to his game that the old Aldo developed.

Some guys fall off a cliff out of nowhere. Some guys start rolling downhill slowly.

Aldo was not in his absolute prime vs Volk but was also far from cooked. To pretend he was some sort of shot fighter you have to completely ignore that he was still a very credible fighter afterwards.

I agree, that's why "Peak" and "Prime" are also important to differentiate. I rarely see anyone acknowledge the difference.


You can be past your most effective peak form in fighting, yet still evolve in the later stages of your prime to continually be effective. Aldo is a good example as you said, he become more defensively responsible and added some layers to his boxing technique and movement.

Another good example of this is Glover Teixeira, he didn't magically become a better fighter in his 40's. He started to simplify his approach and rely more on his grappling. FOUR of the TEN submission victories in his career came from ages 39-42.

There are also factors like momentum, stage of life, etc. Nobody can expect Conor Mcgregor of 2024 to have the same desire, work ethic, or passion for the sport that he had when he was 24 years old with nothing to lose. Some people exit their prime or peak not just through physical decline or a life changing knockout, sometimes even starting a family is the beginning of the end for some fighters.

 

[Shaddows]

I mean, When Aldo fought Volk he wasn't even 33 years old.
Holloway is now just 4 months younger than Aldo was when Volk dominated him in Brazil.
Look at what he did to the most violent LW of all time.

Aldo has been fighting at the highest level (including WEC) since 2008 while Max was fighting at the highest level since 2012.
That means Aldo was 11 yeas in when he fought Volk and Max was 12 years in when he KOed Gaethje.

Not to mention, that Aldo looked very good after the Volk loss and he was actually improving all the way up to the Merab loss.
His boxing was better than ever, he was setting personal best records, his TDD was as good as ever, he was even bringing back leg kicks to some extent.

Even if we count their entire careers(amateur included) Max was fighting since 2006 while Aldo was fighting since 2004.

In my opinion prime version of fighters like Max, Volk and Petr would beat any version of Aldo simply because they have much better gas tanks and chins.

So, If he really wasn't in his physical prime when he fought Volk then when was he, from which fight to which?

You can start by stopping to compare them like they are Robots.
This is not math where if you start at 20 our prime will be in yout 30's and retirement at 40's.

You can win a 5 rounds war or a flash KO/Submission. and even THAT won't give you the full picture, because some fighters train far harder than others. and it may show or not, since each fighter can heal faster/slower, they can have different injuries that shorten their oprime, etc and all.

It is asinine to claim just because Silva was the champ at age 40, then every champ can stay at the top until they are 40!

 

[El Panteron]

I wish science would do some real studies into the subject of athletic "Prime" but I refuse to believe anyone is in their prime over 30. I think the real prime is 25-29.

Science would at the most just give an average because each person is different.
And if "prime" means peak performance you have to factor in experience, as you need experience to perform at the highest level in fighting.
Also stuff like evolution of style, coaching, mental space & mental health.
Can easily happen that someone has their best performances over 30 y/o.

 

[MEAN357]

He basically future-proofed his skillset by getting so good at boxing, TDD, and dealing with leg kicks.

Aldo's competition is as strong as any GOAT candidate. Wins over Faber, Edgar x2, Mendes x2, and KZ is nothing to scoff at.

1000% lol Aldo is so painfully underrated

 

[Substance Abuse]

1000% lol Aldo is so painfully underrated

Aldo beat Edgar in their first fight when he had a rightful claim to the Bendo rematch and should have been the Lightweight Champion. It was a Super Fight in my eyes, and Jose won it comfortably.

 

[acannxr]

people like to make excuses, like when hendo crushed fedor like a bug and exposed him people her suddenly said he was past his prime even though heno was older.

Fedor was past his prime by 2008, had already lost to Werdum/Silva, and unlike Henderson he had a concurrent Combat Sambo career (he was medaling from 1998-2008).

And Henderson's age is even less relevant because he had been on TRT for four years by the time he fought Fedor.

 

[Rob Rain]

Everyone's primes are the same. Everyone accumulates the same injuries. Everyone trains the same. Max and Jose both got in motorcycle accidents. Max and Jose both kept sparring.

However, to delve further into it, most fighters begin to experience an athletic, reactionary and ability to absorb damage decline about ten to twelve years in. GSP is considered one of the greats and his career was winding down in '13 after almost twelve years of fighting, prompting him to retire. Condit's descent began in '14 after starting in '02 when he got injured against Woodley. Aldo was a few months shy of his twelfth year in MMA at 29 when he began to lose. Fedor started taking losses almost eleven years in. Edgar wasn't the same thirteen years in. Big Nog eleven years. Liddell hit the wall around that time.

Yes, there are outliers like Mighty Mouse, Jon Jones (wink, wink) Anderson Silva (wink, wink), and apparently Max (who stopped sparring to spare his health and try to stave off decline), but for the most part, the majority of top fighters experience it after or around this time frame and begin to taste defeat more often as reflexes change; wear takes it toll; chins fade; injuries linger; weight cuts get harder; there's more tape available on you.

To hammer home my point: Volkanovski lost to Ilia three months shy of his twelfth year as a mixed martial artist. He's still a great fighter, but at 35, and this far into his career, he'll likely never be the same.

Great post. Nice to see a mod leading by example. So the big question. How long does Max have until he declines?

 

[Substance Abuse]

Great post. Nice to see a mod leading by example. So the big question. How long does Max have until he declines?

Your guess is as good as mine. It's really hard to gauge how long a chin like Max's will take to fade or crack. Max is definitely not as his peak as an athlete. He is more than likely at his apex from an approach and game planning perspective.

 

[Rob Rain]

Your guess is as good as mine. It's really hard to gauge how long a chin like Max's will take to fade or crack. Max is definitely not as his peak as an athlete. He is more than likely at his apex from an approach and game planning perspective.

He's smart and seems to surround himself with good people. He's mentally very strong. There's no sign of a decline in his reflexes. He's added to his skill set as we saw at the weekend. He definitely learnt from and adapted from his first fight at lightweight. My head is saying two years and my heart wants more. But two years is enough to give us five or six more fights and for him to win another belt and defend it.