How can anyone look at '04 Hughes, '10 Shields and '19 Colby/Usman and say the sport has evolved?

[Natural Order]

Newb. He most definitely used his striking to set up his TDs and was extremely effective at it. You've never watched a Hughe's fight huh?

Dude is embarrassing himself badly.....might retire him before 25 posts.

 

[Eczemaaa]

Newb. He most definitely used his striking to set up his TDs and was extremely effective at it. You've never watched a Hughe's fight huh?

I’ve watched him fight but I’m poised to say you’ve never watched him fight if you’re attempting to it him on Colby and Usmans level. Never said he didn’t use striking to set up take downs. I’m saying that his ability to do so is extremely limited in comparison to someone like Colby who is more well rounded and can pressure a fighter standing despite being a d1 all American. Hughes is someone who HAS to rely on his wrestling to break fighters down and isn’t able to keep fighters guessing and pressure guys in ways that Colby and Usman are, if Hughes were around today with that style he would not have been champion.

 

[Eczemaaa]

Clearly you've seen one Usman fight.

I’ve seen them all actually.

 

[Slick_36]

I agree for the most part

But these techniques might have existed for hundreds of years, but most people werent aware of them.

Its only from about 2010 forward that we started seeing complete MMA fighters all over the scene. Fighters that started learning martial arts specifically to fight MMA from the start.
Before that we had a lot of specialized guys. Like, this guy knows mainly BJJ, that guy nows mainly karate, etc...

So the techniques might not have evolved themselves. But they were spread widely to "public" knowledge among the competitors

I think a majority of the fighters at the top levels were well rounded by 2010. I would say it was nearly completely modern by 2005 at the very least.

I honestly don't think the sport has evolved all that much. Look at Anderson vs Israel, an old and weathered Silva took the newer and better version of himself to a decision and didn't look outmatched at all.

Compare Fedor's wins over guys like Crocop, Big Nog, and the wrestlers of Hammer House to Stipe's wins over Francis, Werdum, and DC. I think Fedor looked a lot more impressive against equal if not better skill and talent, DC aside who took a win off of Stipe as well.

Look at a team like Chute Boxe with guys like Shogun who is still KO'ing fighters but were also all BJJ black belts. Look at GSP and a hungry BJ Penn. I would honestly say there might be a regression if anything.

 

[C0NCH3TO]

Hughes is a fucking legend and Shields was pretty damn effective and had great wins on him. That said, Usman would eat them for lunch. Not so sure about Colby, though.( dont get me wrong, dude is a tough mfer and fights like a beast )

 

[Natural Order]

I’ve seen them all actually.

Yeah, then you'd know that claiming Hughes wrestled his opponents down and wore them out while Usman doesn't is literally the dumbest thing posted on here in the last 24 hours.

 

[Natural Order]

I’ve watched him fight but I’m poised to say you’ve never watched him fight if you’re attempting to it him on Colby and Usmans level. Never said he didn’t use striking to set up take downs. I’m saying that his ability to do so is extremely limited in comparison to someone like Colby who is more well rounded and can pressure a fighter standing despite being a d1 all American. Hughes is someone who HAS to rely on his wrestling to break fighters down and isn’t able to keep fighters guessing and pressure guys in ways that Colby and Usman are, if Hughes were around today with that style he would not have been champion.

More nonsense. Khabib would like a word.

Do you even watch this shit bro?

 

[Bend NvR Break]

I’ve watched him fight but I’m poised to say you’ve never watched him fight if you’re a tren attempting to it him on Colby and Usmans level. Never said he didn’t use striking to set up take downs. I’m saying that his ability to do so is extremely limited in comparison to someone like Colby who is more well rounded and can pressure a fighter standing despite being a d1 all American. Hughes is someone who HAS to rely on his wrestling to break fighters down and isn’t able to keep fighters guessing and pressure guys in ways that Colby and Usman are, if Hughes were around today with that style he would not have been champion.

No. Just no on so many levels. If anything Hughes was the definition of pressure.

Colby's striking works because of opponents are wary of being taken down. Not because he has good striking. How can Damian f'ing maia out box you for a round and a half and you be considered to have "good" striking? Imagine if Maia didn't gas. He would hand won a decision in a stand up fight. Think about that.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

I think a majority of the fighters at the top levels were well rounded by 2010. I would say it was nearly completely modern by 2005 at the very least.

I honestly don't think the sport has evolved all that much. Look at Anderson vs Israel, an old and weathered Silva took the newer and better version of himself to a decision and didn't look outmatched at all.

Compare Fedor's wins over guys like Crocop, Big Nog, and the wrestlers of Hammer House to Stipe's wins over Francis, Werdum, and DC. I think Fedor looked a lot more impressive against equal if not better skill and talent, DC aside who took a win off of Stipe as well.

Look at a team like Chute Boxe with guys like Shogun who is still KO'ing fighters but were also all BJJ black belts. Look at GSP and a hungry BJ Penn. I would honestly say there might be a regression if anything.

Regression? I agree but regression might not be the right term. Almost like "trimming the fat."

Remember we first had specialists then there was this big push to learn everything.

Now imo we are seeing guys at the top master 1 aspect of fighting then learning enough of the other aspects to keep/ direct the fight into that fighter's wheelhouse.

You don't need to learn boxing so you can out strike a striker. You need to learn enough striking to set up your TDs and get the fight to the mat.

You don't need to be a black or brown belt in bjj. You need to learn enough to know what to when you're on your back. (If your a striker)

You don't need to learn to outwresle an Olympian. You need to learn enough wrestling to be able to take the fight to the ground or keep the fight standing.

You learn enough to compliment what you want to do in the fight.

You're not gonna take a kickboxer and teach him enough bjj to out grapple a grappler.
You're not gonna teach a grappler to out strike a guy who's wheelhouse is striking.
You have to learn enough to know how to take the fight to your wheelhouse.

 

[Verace]

I think a majority of the fighters at the top levels were well rounded by 2010. I would say it was nearly completely modern by 2005 at the very least.

I honestly don't think the sport has evolved all that much. Look at Anderson vs Israel, an old and weathered Silva took the newer and better version of himself to a decision and didn't look outmatched at all.

Compare Fedor's wins over guys like Crocop, Big Nog, and the wrestlers of Hammer House to Stipe's wins over Francis, Werdum, and DC. I think Fedor looked a lot more impressive against equal if not better skill and talent, DC aside who took a win off of Stipe as well.

Look at a team like Chute Boxe with guys like Shogun who is still KO'ing fighters but were also all BJJ black belts. Look at GSP and a hungry BJ Penn. I would honestly say there might be a regression if anything.

i kinda just threw a date that seemed reasonable of the top of my head memory wise.

"an old and weathered Silva took the newer and better version of himself" - I dont know about that But anyway, i dont think we can judge the evolution of the entire sport based on one fight

Fedor lost to maldonado also.... So it kinda goes both ways.

As i said... there were guys who were well rounded back then, but it was only a few. Now its the other way around. Everybody has a complete game and only a few specialists. But sure... there were more than just the two i mentioned.

I cant agree on a regression though. The stand up improved a LOT. Look at guys like Zabit and Yair. Look at how many guys are using more footwork ala cruz/dillashaw, etc...

You dont think?

 

[Bend NvR Break]

Yeah, then you'd know that claiming Hughes wrestled his opponents down and wore them out while Usman doesn't is literally the dumbest thing posted on here in the last 24 hours.

This is literally why I made this thread. I saw Usman and thought of Hughes and was like they're doing the same thing 15 years apart. Used the same blueprint to get a title.

 

[Coconutwater]

Posturing up has been around for a million years but only after people figured out the mysteries of the guard did people start posturing up.

Before, fighters willingly put their heads down, doing the work FOR the bottom man.

It is not solely a question of discovery....

But awareness and application .

So yeah, we evolved a lot.

 

[Natural Order]

This is literally why I made this thread. I saw Usman and thought of Hughes and was like they're doing the same thing 15 years apart. Used the same blueprint to get a title.

To bad Usman doesn't have anywhere near the submission game.

Imagine how much recency bias you've gotta have to think Usman is more well-rounded than Matt Hughes.

 

[titanium rod]

Matt Hughes fought for a long time, so I think a lot of guys on here missed seeing him fight in his prime. He was a fucking monster back then. Prime Hughes hit harder, had better submissions, and was a much more powerful wrestler (when he took a guy down, they were lucky to get back up for the rest of the round, if not the entire fight) than either Colby or Usman. I like Colby, but he has very little power in his punches. I like Usman, but if he attempted to grapple Matt against a cage, his ass would take flight as Matt slammed him to the ground.

I think a prime Hughes beats either of them at least 6/10 times.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

To bad Usman doesn't have anywhere near the submission game.

Imagine how much recency bias you've gotta have to think Usman is more well-rounded than Matt Hughes.

A lot. That's why I thought this was a relevant topic.

They fact we have to defend matt Hughes abilities is mind boggling. It's Matt Hughes ffs.

I call it the novelty fallacy.

 

[Based and White Pilled]

The skillset doesn't evolve in leaps and bounds. The techniques we see have been in place for decades, if not hundreds of years. Nobody is making new shit up that hasn't been done before.

The evolution, like all professional sports, is in the athleticism (better nutrition, training, understanding of physiology, recovery, etc.). This results in faster mechanics, quicker reflexes, faster thinking. Better conditioned athletes. That's where the evolution comes from.

This is true, but MMA had pretty well caught up to the rest of the sports world in terms of modern training techniques by like 2008. The evolution had slowed down dramatically by 2006ish. Even before that there were guys ahead of the curve, which is why you can watch Fedor vs CroCop now and clearly see that they are as good as current top fighters.

The difference between the top fighters then and now is insignificant. The depth of the talent pool has steadily grown, though, which will continue to drive slow improvement in the skills at the top.

 

[Natural Order]

This is true, but MMA had pretty well caught up to the rest of the sports world in terms of modern training techniques by like 2008. The evolution had slowed down dramatically by 2006ish. Even before that there were guys ahead of the curve, which is why you can watch Fedor vs CroCop now and clearly see that they are as good as current top fighters.

The difference between the top fighters than and now is insignificant. The depth of the talent pool has steadily grown, though, which will continue to drive slow improvement in the skills at the top.

Completely agree.

 

[IDL]

The skillset doesn't evolve in leaps and bounds. The techniques we see have been in place for decades, if not hundreds of years. Nobody is making new shit up that hasn't been done before.

The evolution, like all professional sports, is in the athleticism (better nutrition, training, understanding of physiology, recovery, etc.). This results in faster mechanics, quicker reflexes, faster thinking. Better conditioned athletes. That's where the evolution comes from.

That's only part of it.

The other part is that techniques are being TESTED in combat sports constantly. Teams are going to try to come up with counters and strategies, we will see different skill sets actually be tested, people will see what is working and what isn't, and all of that. Like with any sport, or anything that actually gets tested. MMA still hasn't been around all that long for this process to work itself out I don't think.

 

[Xoleth]

No. Just no on so many levels. If anything Hughes was the definition of pressure.

Colby's striking works because of opponents are wary of being taken down. Not because he has good striking. How can Damian f'ing maia out box you for a round and a half and you be considered to have "good" striking? Imagine if Maia didn't gas. He would hand won a decision in a stand up fight. Think about that.

True but his striking improved after the Maia fight.
He show some decent boxing offense in the Usman fight.
Sure, Usman has shitty boxing defense, but he wasn't afraid of being taken down.

 

[mst-dot]

We don't know that. You're assuming. I think Hughes is bigger, stronger, has a better tank and is more skilled in the grappling department than Colby. Colby might have better fundamental striking though but Hughes has a bigger punch.

How is he bigger and stronger he wrestled 2 divisions lighter than both colby and usman! Neither would be overwhelmed by hughes strength.

Colby has more finesse than hughes
Usman has more size than hughes

No.
All have extensive wrestling backgrounds.
All learned submissions after.
All have superb cardio.
All picked up striking to complement their grappling which is their strength.
No assuming.

How do you know? You got times for comparison?
Hughes won state twice in HS, was a 3 time D1 all American wrestler at eastern Illinois and placed 8th and 5th nationally his last 2 years. Both those accomplishments pass Colby and Usman own wrestling careers.

Again, 2 weight classes lighter and he wasn't that much more successful than colby p4p either way

I agree. Colby isn’t a better grappler than Hughes

In literal terms if they were to face each other.. Yes he is