How can anyone look at '04 Hughes, '10 Shields and '19 Colby/Usman and say the sport has evolved?

[560ti]

The skillset doesn't evolve in leaps and bounds. The techniques we see have been in place for decades, if not hundreds of years. Nobody is making new shit up that hasn't been done before.

The evolution, like all professional sports, is in the athleticism (better nutrition, training, understanding of physiology, recovery, etc.). This results in faster mechanics, quicker reflexes, faster thinking. Better conditioned athletes. That's where the evolution comes from.

I agree 100x with this. Look at Guy Mezger for example

Mezger was a state champion wrestler, professional kickboxing, brown belt in BJJ, and had 46 professional MMA fights.

It's been almost 20 years since his last fight and his skillset/credentials still hold value today.

The main thing that's changed since then is like you said athletisism (Mezger was small for the weight class and due to poor training methods had too many gym wars leading to his chin detoriating).

The exact replica of Mezger in 2020 would be a middleweight training at ATT and would arguably be a top 15 fighter in the world

 

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How is he bigger and stronger he wrestled 2 divisions lighter than both colby and usman! Neither would be overwhelmed by hughes strength.

Colby has more finesse than hughes
Usman has more size than hughes



Again, 2 weight classes lighter and he wasn't that much more successful than colby p4p either way



In literal terms if they were to face each other.. Yes he is

Hughes was a huge WW. Well over 200 pounds. Colby could fight at 155. He's said multiple times that he fights at 170 to avoid the weight cut and have a better gas tank.

Hughes in 04 is bigger and stronger than Colby in 19. That shouldn't be questioned.


This colby literally saying 170-180 pounds is his natural weight. He doesn't cut weight. He eats down to 170.

Hughes walked around at 200+ pounds and cut to 170. (Different era. Easier to rehydrate with IVs)

 

[mst-dot]

Hughes was a huge WW. Well over 200 pounds. Colby could fight at 155. He's said multiple times that he fights at 170 to avoid the weight cut and have a better gas tank.

Hughes in 04 is bigger and stronger than Colby in 19. That shouldn't be questioned.

In terms of size i place alot more weight on your college weight in general.. I could be wrong, but i. My experience its usually the case.

Either way they wrestled the cream of the crop at 174. Heisnt overwheming them with brute strength like he did at 158
.

Combined with the obvious striking disadvantage which is easy to see with the naked eye and basicaly non debatable.


Neither of them get tired either

 

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In terms of size i place alot more weight on your college weight in general.. I could be wrong, but i. My experience its usually the case.

Either way they wrestled the cream of the crop at 174. Heisnt overwheming them with brute strength like he did at 158
.

Combined with the obvious striking disadvantage which is easy to see with the naked eye and basicaly non debatable.


Neither of them get tired either

I don't see an obvious striking advantage/disadvantage. While Colby might be more fundamentally sound Hughes definitely had more power in his hands and could hurt you. That power makes up and equals out any difference in their striking.

 

[RockyLockridge]

The skillset doesn't evolve in leaps and bounds. The techniques we see have been in place for decades, if not hundreds of years. Nobody is making new shit up that hasn't been done before.

The evolution, like all professional sports, is in the athleticism (better nutrition, training, understanding of physiology, recovery, etc.). This results in faster mechanics, quicker reflexes, faster thinking. Better conditioned athletes. That's where the evolution comes from.

to add to that it's also coaches game planning and knowing how to win a fight against the type of opponent you're watching.

 

[mst-dot]

I don't see an obvious striking advantage/disadvantage. While Colby might be more fundamentally sound Hughes definitely had more power in his hands and could hurt you. That power makes up and equals out any difference in their striking.

Hughes striking was fundamentally awful stiff and slow. Basic repetitive combos with no fluidity whatsoever.

Even a battle worn robbie lawler is light years ahead of Hughes in power speed accuracy etc and colby spent significant periods on the feet with him without any worries.

Just looking at Hughes it's obvious he never dedicated large amounts of time to striking

You can clearly see the cuban boxing influences in colby style

You can clearly see the dutch kickboxong influence in martys Kickboxing

Theyve been working hard at it for years now and it shows

Hughes in comparison looks like a fighter from a generation before in comparison (which he is)


Edit: sorry for the spelling. Phone is acting weird

 

[blaseblah]

Besides the slugfest with Colby what fight can you go to to prove Usman is a competent striking? And not the fight where the guy was so focused on not being taken down by Usman he left his chin exposed.

Most of the people on that list are specialists that seem better in other departments because people are fixed on their specialities.

And honestly idk how you can call Khabib a specialist and not Usman. If anything Khabib is more well rounded than Usman.

Don't be ridiculous. Usman has outstruck most of his opponents while standing, Khabib has not.

 

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Hughes striking wad fundementally awful stiff and slow. Basic repetitive combos no fluidity whatsoever.

Even a battle worn robbie lawler is light years ahead of Hughes in power speed accuracy etc and colby spent sigh periods on thr fee woth him without any worries.

Just looking at Hughes it's obvious he never dedocated large amounts of time to striking

You can clearly see the cuban boxing influences in colby style

You can clearly see the dutch kickboxong influence in martys Kickboxing

Theyve been working hard at ot and it shows

Hughes in comparison looks like a fighter from a gene before in comparison) which he is)

I can agree.

With that said, if prime Hughes stepped into the cage with the same Robbie that Colby did, then Robbie is getting pounded into an eventual stoppage.

 

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Don't be ridiculous. Usman has outstruck most of his opponents while standing, Khabib has not.

So has Khabib actually. Give me one opponent who has out struck him on the feet. Not MJ. Not Barboza. Not RDA. Not ragin Al. Not McGregor. Who has?

 

[Versace]

Hughes was one-dimensional and sucked. Dude lost to Dennis Hallman twice lmfao

He wouldn't even be ranked today, the bum.

 

[r-harper-1]

I hope this is the blueprint of the future

Dude should’ve kicked his face in ...wtf was he waiting for

 

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Hughes was one-dimensional and sucked. Dude lost to Dennis Hallman twice lmfao

He wouldn't even be ranked today, the bum.

McGregor lost to Joe Duffy. He must be trash.
Masdival got inverted triangle by that Bellator wash out guy. Masdival must suck.

Stipe lost to Struve. Take away his professional fighting credentials.

 

[Versace]

McGregor lost to Joe Duffy. He must be trash.
Masdival got inverted triangle by that Bellator wash out guy. Masdival must suck.

Stipe lost to Struve. Take away his professional fighting credentials.

Hughes lost to the bum twice in his prime, which is the difference between him and Conor/Stipe

Absolute trash.

 

[r-harper-1]

I don't see an obvious striking advantage/disadvantage. While Colby might be more fundamentally sound Hughes definitely had more power in his hands and could hurt you. That power makes up and equals out any difference in their striking.

Ahh no .... if Hughes stood with Robbie Lawker for as long as Colby did .... he would get put to sleep ....Hughes showed very little pop on his punches except for catching Ricardo Almedia ....Colby faster , more creative....light years better defensively....you’ve made several good points throughout this thread ..,,, I feel you’re reaching a bit with this one imo

 

[r-harper-1]

Hughes was one-dimensional and sucked. Dude lost to Dennis Hallman twice lmfao

He wouldn't even be ranked today, the bum.

What was his one dimension ? He was a great wrestler and the arm bar he hit on GSP was a thing of beauty .... you’re a bit harsh

 

[dabouv]

The skillset doesn't evolve in leaps and bounds. The techniques we see have been in place for decades, if not hundreds of years. Nobody is making new shit up that hasn't been done before.

The evolution, like all professional sports, is in the athleticism (better nutrition, training, understanding of physiology, recovery, etc.). This results in faster mechanics, quicker reflexes, faster thinking. Better conditioned athletes. That's where the evolution comes from.

I’d say the biggest difference is level,of athletes going into the sport. Wrestling is very old and I imagine Hughes would do about the same as current guys in wrestling at the level,he was. Now more top level,athletes view mma as an option and that is what is different. Go back further and the guys were one dimensional and Royce , who couldn’t make today’s bellator roster in his prime, was top dog.

 

[r-harper-1]

Nonsense, you don't know what you're talking about. Of course his base was wrestling.........to imply Matt Hughes was a one-trick pony is beyond absurd. He was way ahead of his time in terms of well-roundedness.

Usman and Colby have finishing rates under 50%. Hughes is like 80%.

The delusion could not be stronger.

Pretty sure they would finish the same caliber of competition ..... they haven’t had the chance to fight Frank Trigg multiple times .....

 

[Tuf_guy]

The blueprint is still same:

• Have an extensive background in wrestling
• Learn sub skills along the way
• Have superb cardio
• Learn enough striking to defend yourself standing while learning to how use your striking to get the fight to the mat

Everyone talks about how the game has changed and evolved. Maybe. Maybe not. I think Hughes was ahead of the curb because he was with MFS with a real team and real coaches with extensive cross training in disciplines but now that's the standard.

I think the overall talent pool has evolved where before you might have a accomplished kickboxer at 26 start to learn the ground game so they could compete in mma now you have a 16 year old who's been wrestling for 4 year now would want to learn every aspect of fighting before he even started competing.

But it seems to the guys at the top the blueprint hasn't changed.

Hell Khabib falls into the same category. Mastered grappling then learned enough striking to complement it while having great cardio.

What does Sherdog think? Has the blueprint changed?

I don't think those guys are the example. I think MMA has evolved, but I think it's ridiculously overstated. I think GSP is a better example, or Chuck Liddell (ultimately, most of these guys are just using a more disciplined defensive version of Chuck's gameplan to keep it standing and only train wrestling for that reason)... ROBBIE LAWLER - that dude was around forever, but managed to have like 3 or 4 title defenses (including the loss). The heavyweight division, too.
Around the TUF 1 finale, they talked about Franklin as the new breed of MMA fighter. He could strike and grapple well - but he preferred to strike. How much better are most of these guys than him skillset-wise?
I think the guys you described may even just be less talented/skilled versions of GSP at WW. But I do agree that the "NU BREED!" shit is often a joke. One guy said Yair would have beaten BJ at any point in BJ's career because of the evolution of the sport

Really? And people often say ridiculous shit like that when they talk about "the sport has evolved!"

Biggest evolution is fewer people suck in one area, and the lower and mid-level guys are more well rounded - but the GOATS, up to this point, have already come and gone.

 

[r-harper-1]

No. Just no on so many levels. If anything Hughes was the definition of pressure.

Colby's striking works because of opponents are wary of being taken down. Not because he has good striking. How can Damian f'ing maia out box you for a round and a half and you be considered to have "good" striking? Imagine if Maia didn't gas. He would hand won a decision in a stand up fight. Think about that.

Maia would best Hughes standing as well

 

[r-harper-1]

I can agree.

With that said, if prime Hughes stepped into the cage with the same Robbie that Colby did, then Robbie is getting pounded into an eventual stoppage.

Very doubtful