Opinion Hegseth to U.S. generals: "Prepare for war."

[Rational Poster]

I covered this. I misread. My bad.

I accept your concession.

 

[Shaun K]

I accept your concession.

Concession to myself?

 

[Shaun K]

o·be·di·ence
/əˈbēdēən(t)s/

noun

1. compliance with an order, request, or law or submission to another's authority.

I wonder…. Which person they were referring to when they mentioned that whole ‘obey’ thing?

@Rational Poster

 

[LangfordBarrow]

You can but you throw the dice as an active service member. If you are right and upheld you still will suffer in some way most likely. If you are wrong you could spend the rest of your life in federal prison.

There are orders that are obviously unlawful though right? If it's an order two lawyers can argue over then it would be the SCOTUS making a determination but there's a reason soldiers are supposed to refuse illegal orders.

 

[Rational Poster]

@Rational Poster

Not sure what your point is.

Obedience to lawful orders is not the same thing as loyalty to a particular person.

I work for a massive corporation. I am obedient to the orders from my boss and corporate leadership, but I have no loyalty to the company. If I had an offer for a better job, I would take it. Obedience and compliance are not the same thing as personal loyalty.

It's pretty simple stuff.

 

[cincymma79]

There are orders that are obviously unlawful though right? If it's an order two lawyers can argue over then it would be the SCOTUS making a determination but there's a reason soldiers are supposed to refuse illegal orders.

give it a shot

 

[LangfordBarrow]

i definitely liked the no fatties part

For real, you going celibate, did you buy a moped?

 

[LangfordBarrow]

The point is you follow a presidential order unless the Supreme Court over rules it.

If you had to wait for a SCOTUS ruling then nobody would ever refuse an unlawful order....

 

[Strychnine]

 

[LangfordBarrow]

So like… If a cop pulls you over for speeding, and tells you to stop or he’ll take you to jail. At that point, who are you obeying?

We're you speeding or was the cop lying about it?

 

[LangfordBarrow]

give it a shot

You mean shoot the prisoners because they're going to slow us down? Sorry, dawg, that's gonna be a no from me...

 

[Strychnine]

For those who've never served...

The oath of enlistment is as follows

"I, ____________________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice”.
GovInfo+1

This oath is required by federal statute and is taken by all individuals enlisting in the United States Armed Forces.




By orders, you are REPEATEDLY informed that it is LAWFUL orders. It is your duty to refuse to follow unlawful orders.

Warrant Officer Hugh Clowers Thompson Jr. proved this at the My Lai massacre in Vietnam.

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

For those who've never served...

The oath of enlistment is as follows

"I, ____________________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice”.
GovInfo+1

This oath is required by federal statute and is taken by all individuals enlisting in the United States Armed Forces.




By orders, you are REPEATEDLY informed that it is LAWFUL orders. It is your duty to refuse to follow unlawful orders.

Warrant Officer Hugh Clowers Thompson Jr. proved this at the My Lai massacre in Vietnam.

Yup yup

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

The distinction between ALL orders and all LAWFUL orders is incredibly important for one simple reason:

"I was following orders" isn't a valid excuse in court

 

[Strychnine]

The distinction between ALL orders and all LAWFUL orders is incredibly important for one simple reason:

"I was following orders" isn't a valid excuse in court

It didn't work at Nuremberg, it didn't work at My Lai, and it dang sure didn't work in Iraq.

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

It didn't work at Nuremberg, it didn't work at My Lai, and it dang sure didn't work in Iraq.

I think this os one of the most commonly misunderstood things amoung service members. At all levels of the chain of command. Just because your superior tells you to do something wrong doesn't mean you should do it and definitely doesn't mean you're safe from consequences.

Instant obedience to orders is important but it can't overwrite common sense

 

[Limbo Pete]

Im not going to entertain this when a software program that includes all of mans knowledge has proven my statement to be grammatically correct. Confer any further questions with any online or textbook resources you may have.

...all of man's knowledge?

 

[Area809]

You swear an oath to the president. You wouldnt understand, guess you never had your hand raised.

You do not swear an oath to the president my friend.

“that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

That part of the oath of enlistment doesn’t mean loyalty to the president. It means you obey orders from the president, as long as it complies with the UCMJ. Which is the opposite of blind loyalty.

 

[curryjunkie]

What's this thread about, again?

There's a mix up in the kitchen , somebody ordered the squid, but a cunt turned up instead..

 

[oldshadow]

True, but it's up to the soldier to determine for themselves if an order is constitutional or not... the court just determines if they were right. A solider can't just blindly follow orders and not expect that they are immune to prosecution for constitutional violations.

Ot doesn't work that way with a presidents orders.

Yes a service member can refuse an order and when he does he goes the military prison and then court martial where he/she would try to defend it. In peace time anyway.

You cannot just refuse an order without consequences.