"Hard-Working American" Myth

[OldGoat]

Well, I think one thing the TS is trying to convey (at least I think he is) is accurate.

Americans are more productive, work longer hours, take less time off and yet workers are currently getting a smaller piece of the pie, compared to prior generations.

You don't think Americans on average are wealthier though or have higher standards of living?

 

[panamaican]

Really? An heir deserves the inheritance because someone, perhaps multiple generations removed, worked hard? That's some impressive dissonance reduction.

I didn't say they deserved inheritance. I said that inheritance only exists because someone worked hard to accumulate it. If you're going to say that hard work doesn't matter because some people get inheritances, you have to first acknowledge how that inheritance was created - hard work by someone. Inheritances don't just spring up out thin air.

 

[Bay Area]

You don't think Americans on average are wealthier though or have higher standards of living?

Most have roofs over their heads, running water, and flatscreens if that's your point.

 

[panamaican]

Well, I think one thing the TS is trying to convey (at least I think he is) is accurate.

Americans are more productive, work longer hours, take less time off and yet workers are currently getting a smaller piece of the pie, compared to prior generations.

Americans are getting a smaller piece of which pie - the American economic pie or the global economic pie?

 

[CableandThanos]

in my opinion you are the one who has a skewed view of reality.
I realize that there are problems with our society. There are. You can't ignore them and pretend they don't exist. But those in power want to keep the status quo, they don't want to fix the problems. That's why we need to help people that are disadvantaged however we can.
And I'm not in favor of taxing everyone and extra 5% or some bull like that... but seriously...
Sales tax went down from 15% to 13% in my province. Do you know what that changed for most Canadians? Absolutely nothing. So why did they do it? They did it for votes. And yet it works.
Social programs are good. Education and healthcare standards are good. I don't know how this is hard to see.

This is precious

The self entitled rich kid who just happen to fall on hard times is telling the kid of an immigrant who worked his way up to be a lawyer, that he has a skewed view of reality?????


You really went there..

I've never said this to another grown ass man, BUT YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF.

You went from having everything handed to you to having to pay for some shit yourself and now you come on these boards saying stuff like--- I think there should be $40,000 minimum wages.

Pathetic, just plain pathetic.

 

[kpt018]

You don't think Americans on average are wealthier though or have higher standards of living?

Then in the past? Yes, we are certainly better off today. But I think the current trends of income inequality and specifically the connection to productivity (more productive, smaller share of profits) is going to threaten that upward trend middle class folks have enjoyed for decades. And the other side of that? The ultra-wealthy are getting an even bigger share.

Note: I am not talking about rich guys or even wealthy folks. Specifically, the ultra-wealthy are really reaping the biggest gains and even lower-upper class folks like doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. are seeing small, but somewhat stagnant gains.

 

[kpt018]

Americans are getting a smaller piece of which pie - the American economic pie or the global economic pie?

Both.

 

[LucasWithLidOff]

Then in the past? Yes, we are certainly better off today. But I think the current trends of income inequality and specifically the connection to productivity (more productive, smaller share of profits) is going to threaten that upward trend middle class folks have enjoyed for decades. And the other side of that? The ultra-wealthy are getting an even bigger share.

Note: I am not talking about rich guys or even wealthy folks. Specifically, the ultra-wealthy are really reaping the biggest gains and even lower-upper class folks like doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. are seeing small, but somewhat stagnant gains.

I agree. As much as I despise the occupy movement, this is one grievance I see eye to eye on.

 

[MarcoW]

This is precious

The self entitled rich kid who just happen to fall on hard times is telling the kid of an immigrant who worked his way up to be a lawyer, that he has a skewed view of reality?????


You really went there..

I've never said this to another grown ass man, BUT YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF.

You went from having everything handed to you to having to pay for some shit yourself and now you come on these boards saying stuff like--- I think there should be $40,000 minimum wages.

Pathetic, just plain pathetic.

I really don't care about anything you have to say. I didn't even read your entire post. I find it nice that you've taken so much interest in my thread.

 

[OldGoat]

Most have roofs over their heads, running water, and flatscreens if that's your point.

If the comparison is to the ultra wealthy the poor will never have the same don't you think that's an unrealistic comparison? If the poor took advantage of all the free knowledge available and changed some of their self destructive habits and stopped voting for job destroying politicians their lives would continue to improve?

That said the 99% can NEVER be the 1%. Some may move up but an equal amount must move down for that to occur. That's why inequality as a measurement is misleading and dangerous. I don't care that Bill Gates is a trillionaire if my needs are met and I'm in a society that gives me opportunities to improve. I do care if Bill Gates and I are equally poor and starving to death while trying to fill bags with leaves and grass. I don't want equal misery.

 

[CableandThanos]

Then in the past? Yes, we are certainly better off today. But I think the current trends of income inequality and specifically the connection to productivity (more productive, smaller share of profits) is going to threaten that upward trend middle class folks have enjoyed for decades. And the other side of that? The ultra-wealthy are getting an even bigger share.

Note: I am not talking about rich guys or even wealthy folks. Specifically, the ultra-wealthy are really reaping the biggest gains and even lower-upper class folks like doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. are seeing small, but somewhat stagnant gains.

question?

How have we become more productive workers? Meaning how or why have we become more productive workers?

 

[kpt018]

I agree. As much as I despise the occupy movement, this is one grievance I see eye to eye on.

The occupy movement was disjointed and very unorganized (probably mostly due to poor leadership or no leadership). But I think there is appeal to overall message that we should not have an economic system that promotes income inequality and that a few bad decisions by big banks can collapse our entire system. Those messages do have some merit.

 

[MarcoW]

question?

How have we become more productive workers? Meaning how or why have we become more productive workers?

technology is the pretty obvious answer.

 

[kpt018]

question?

How have we become more productive workers? Meaning how or why have we become more productive workers?

We work more hours (many people without additional pay), we take less vacation, do not use sick days (some do not even get paid sick days).

Basically, the number of hours worked per year have gone up.

You can check out the BLS and a million articles on the topic. It's basically bi-partisan to say that Americans are very productive (many will say the most productive in the world) and that production has increased over the last 50 years.

 

[CableandThanos]

technology is the pretty obvious answer.

ok great

so the worker themselves isn't working any harder or faster than back in the 50's, they just take advantage of technology.

The company has to buy and install the technology that helps makes workers lives easier and more productive. The technology is then the one or mechanism that is the reason for the increase in productivity, but the worker (who now has it easier) says that the want a raise because a machine is making things more productive??

Steps involved

1. Company spends $100,000 on machine/tech
2. tech/machine cause the increase in productivity while making things easier on the worker.

3. Worker thinks they deserve raise because of a machine that they didn't pay for is making things more productive?

How is that even a logical conclusion?

 

[MarcoW]

not more productive per hour?

 

[MarcoW]

ok great
words

Im just speculating. If there is more production per hour technology makes most sense.
If there is just more hours worked, then this is no the case.

 

[kpt018]

ok great

so the worker themselves isn't working any harder or faster than back in the 50's, they just take advantage of technology.

The company has to buy and install the technology that helps makes workers lives easier and more productive. The technology is then the one or mechanism that is the reason for the increase in productivity, but the worker (who now has it easier) says that the want a raise because a machine is making things more productive??

Steps involved

1. Company spends $100,000 on machine/tech
2. tech/machine cause the increase in productivity while making things easier on the worker.

3. Worker thinks they deserve raise because of a machine that they didn't pay for is making things more productive?

How is that even a logical conclusion?

Or maybe people think that working 60 hours a week vs 40 hours a week, or taking 1 week vacation instead of 3 or using 2 sick days instead of 5, would warrant an increase in pay. IDK, call me crazy, but those people would have a point.

It's amazing how predictable some conservatives are. Even when the answer is obvious, you resort to shitting on workers and defending your masters.

 

[ABACA]

No, statistically speaking inheritance, connections and social status get you ahead. In no other western industrialized country is the statistical connection between your parents wealth and your future income as strong as it is in the US.

Inheritance is such a cop out. Someone had to earn it before it became inheritance. And that someone worked hard.

I didn't say they deserved inheritance. I said that inheritance only exists because someone worked hard to accumulate it. If you're going to say that hard work doesn't matter because some people get inheritances, you have to first acknowledge how that inheritance was created - hard work by someone. Inheritances don't just spring up out thin air.

You're absolutely right - Inheritances don't just spring up out of thin air. Inheritance only exists because of private ownership of productive property, patriarchy and patrilineality, and a state to violently protect private property rights.

But what is your take, people don't deserve inheritance, or that inheritance is beyond reproach, since criticizing a system for consolidating wealth through inheritance is a "cop out"?

 

[CableandThanos]

Or maybe people think that working 60 hours a week vs 40 hours a week, or taking 1 week vacation instead of 3 or using 2 sick days instead of 5, would warrant an increase in pay. IDK, call me crazy, but those people would have a point.

It's amazing how predictable some conservatives are. Even when the answer is obvious, you resort to shitting on workers and defending your masters.

So we work more hours but the actual work involved is easier because of technology.

Just because a person may work longer doesn't mean they are working harder.

It's amazing, even though things have gotten easier at work, liberals want more money for doing less actual labor.