"Hard-Working American" Myth

[MarcoW]

hi MarcoW,

i stopped listening when the narrator announced, breathlessly, that an individual discovered that "incomes affect outcomes".

i appreciate you linking me to a piece that expands on your argument...but i know that incomes affect outcomes.

was there anything more pertinent to follow in the ensuing 20 minutes of audio that you linked for me?

- IGIT

not sure what you expected me to tell you.
That was actually the wrong link, I meant to link an article, but it was about the same thing.

But incomes effecting outcomes is the key reason why I believe that minimum standard wage should be supported. If it existed our healthcare would be less taxed, we wouldn't have to pay so much on crime control, and other costs related to "outcomes" would be minimized.

It could actually save money for the country.

 

[AznTrojan]

lol...
You do realize that the government pays out disability cheques, right?

that's disability and welfare which the taxpayers pay for.. it's not a living wage (40k according to you).. why the fuck would anyone work at all if the government was going to provide a living wage for everyone...

 

[MarcoW]

that's disability and welfare which the taxpayers pay for.. it's not a living wage (40k according to you).. why the fuck would anyone work at all if the government was going to provide a living wage for everyone...

:icon_conf
lol wow.
First of all 40k is a living wage but it would require working.
And many of the disabled do make 40k+
I have a friend with minor epilepsy with his seizures under control and he still gets 12,000 a year.

people would work for the same reason they work now, to get more money.

 

[AznTrojan]

:icon_conf
lol wow.
First of all 40k is a living wage but it would require working.
And many of the disabled do make 40k+
I have a friend with minor epilepsy with his seizures under control and he still gets 12,000 a year.

people would work for the same reason they work now, to get more money.

that is fucking retarded..

work 0 hours.. get 40k "free" from the government

why the fuck would anyone work 40 hours/week to earn 40-50k when they can just work 0

socialism works until you run out of other people's money

and why the fuck are disabled people making 40k+ and you can't..

 

[IGIT]

higher minimum wage for starters.
less abuse of workers allowed...
The temporary foreign workers policy, for example, shouldn't be used at all.
fair benefits with a good amount of time invested in the job.

Contract jobs should not replace full-time jobs.
Unpaid internships should not replace entry level jobs.

etc etc.
It all seems like pretty basic stuff to me, but to many its communist propaganda.
If the government is the one to implement these policies than more power to them.

heya MarcoW,

regarding the minimum wage, most of the citizens of the United States agrees with you.

Mar 4, 2014 - Recent polls show strong public support for Obama's call of raising the minimum wage from $7.25 an hour to $10.10.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/03/04/polls-show-strong-support-for-minimum-wage-hike/

the GOP representatives in the House of Representatives here in the United States do not, though. Mr. Obama and his fellow Democrats had two years where they held majorities in both the House and the Senate - and they didn't do anything about the minimum wage either.

i don't know what conclusions you'd draw from this.

regarding foreign workers...are you talking about fruit pickers from across the US southern border, or are you talking about well compensated foreign workers that Bank of America hires?

regarding free lancers vs full time employees...i don't know how much traction that will get. some professions naturally lend themselves to the hiring of free lancers, you know? i hire make up artists and stylists from time to time, but i'd never be able to afford to keep one permanently on staff.

i've also had unpaid interns, if the job market allowed me to do so.

if i had to pay them - i wouldn't have interns, i'd have been fine and they'd have lost out on work experience.

i don't know where all of this leaves us.

- IGIT

 

[AznTrojan]

heya MarcoW,

regarding the minimum wage, most of the citizens of the United States agrees with you.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/03/04/polls-show-strong-support-for-minimum-wage-hike/

the GOP representatives in the House of Representatives here in the United States do not, though. Mr. Obama and his fellow Democrats had two years where they held majorities in both the House and the Senate - and they didn't do anything about the minimum wage either.

i don't know what conclusions you'd draw from this.

regarding foreign workers...are you talking about fruit pickers from across the US southern border, or are you talking about well compensated foreign workers that Bank of America hires?

regarding free lancers vs full time employees...i don't know how much traction that will get. some professions naturally lend themselves to the hiring of free lancers, you know? i hire make up artists and stylists from time to time, but i'd never be able to afford to keep one permanently on staff.

i've also had unpaid interns, if the job market allowed me to do so.

if i had to pay them - i wouldn't have interns, i'd have been fine and they'd have lost out on work experience.

i don't know where all of this leaves us.

- IGIT

most people who should be bitching about the increasing min wage are the small mom and pop companies as they won't be able to afford the increases.. large multinational corps can afford this and this min wage increase will just eliminate competition..

 

[HIMBOB]

higher minimum wage for starters.
less abuse of workers allowed...
The temporary foreign workers policy, for example, shouldn't be used at all.
fair benefits with a good amount of time invested in the job.

Contract jobs should not replace full-time jobs.
Unpaid internships should not replace entry level jobs.

etc etc.
It all seems like pretty basic stuff to me, but to many its communist propaganda.
If the government is the one to implement these policies than more power to them.

I have no objection to companies bringing in skilled labour if they can't find it in the local market.
However those payments should incur a loading so that it makes it impossible to do this just so you can save money.

 

[MarcoW]

that is fucking retarded..

work 0 hours.. get 40k "free" from the government

why the fuck would anyone work 40 hours/week to earn 40-50k when they can just work 0

socialism works until you run out of other people's money

and why the fuck are disabled people making 40k+ and you can't..

uhh
you didn't even comprehend my post.
In my proposed society you would have to work for your 40k minimum wage.
Unless you wanted to cut both your arms off to collect your disability living wage.
If your willing to go to that length not to work, more power to you.

 

[AznTrojan]

uhh
you didn't even comprehend my post.
In my proposed society you would have to work for your 40k minimum wage.
Unless you wanted to cut both your arms off to collect your disability living wage.
If your willing to go to that length not to work, more power to you.

and of course.. no one would ever game they system by claiming disability and getting 40k for free right?

why not open your borders to everyone and see how long that policy lasts..

 

[MarcoW]

heya MarcoW,

regarding the minimum wage, most of the citizens of the United States agrees with you.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/03/04/polls-show-strong-support-for-minimum-wage-hike/

the GOP representatives in the House of Representatives here in the United States do not, though. Mr. Obama and his fellow Democrats had two years where they held majorities in both the House and the Senate - and they didn't do anything about the minimum wage either.

i don't know what conclusions you'd draw from this.

regarding foreign workers...are you talking about fruit pickers from across the US southern border, or are you talking about well compensated foreign workers that Bank of America hires?

regarding free lancers vs full time employees...i don't know how much traction that will get. some professions naturally lend themselves to the hiring of free lancers, you know? i hire make up artists and stylists from time to time, but i'd never be able to afford to keep one permanently on staff.

i've also had unpaid interns, if the job market allowed me to do so.

if i had to pay them - i wouldn't have interns, i'd have been fine and they'd have lost out on work experience.

i don't know where all of this leaves us.

- IGIT

I'm okay with contract work, but in Canada at least more and more full time positions are getting replaced with contract work under the Conservative government. This leads to lower wages, no benefits, and no guaranteed work for workers.

The foreign workers were mentioned in this thread. Basically companies fly workers over from poor countries, pay them as little as possible, and tell them if they complain they will get deported.

Interns are supposed to be paid unless they are paid. Generation jobless theory is now thinking that internships are replacing the entry level jobs of yester-year, so now there is no way for workers to actually get paid work experience. Generation jobless is a good documentary too, watch it if you want to learn more.

And of course average americans would want a higher minimum wage, most have worked one of those jobs and realized how awful it is to work for next to nothing.

 

[HIMBOB]

most people who should be bitching about the increasing min wage are the small mom and pop companies as they won't be able to afford the increases.. large multinational corps can afford this and this min wage increase will just eliminate competition..

If you business can't support the workers it needs to operate it's a shit business and it should die as soon as possible.

 

[MarcoW]

and of course.. no one would ever game they system by claiming disability and getting 40k for free right?

why not open your borders to everyone and see how long that policy lasts..

tax fraud would be investigated just as it is now... its not all that hard to figure out.

 

[MarcoW]

If you business can't support the workers it needs to operate it's a shit business and it should die as soon as possible.

well this is the case, businesses also should not get to survive just because they are the best at exploiting their workers.

 

[AznTrojan]

If you business can't support the workers it needs to operate it's a shit business and it should die as soon as possible.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/report-15-minimum-wage-could-force-seattle-non-pro/ndbM4/

http://philanthropy.com/blogs/phila...ke-minimum-wage-could-squeeze-charities/84429

sure.. lets cut food banks.. child care centers and charities

 

[HIMBOB]

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/report-15-minimum-wage-could-force-seattle-non-pro/ndbM4/

http://philanthropy.com/blogs/phila...ke-minimum-wage-could-squeeze-charities/84429

sure.. lets cut food banks.. child care centers and charities

NFP's are very different.


Also what %age of people working for less than $15 are working in industries like these?

The money you save on giving less welfare to say 100 people employed by say walmart etc would give the government additional ability to help pay the 5 or so working for charities and other services deemed essential by government.

 

[VulgarSnaps]

Hard work just isn't the only component.

While I do feel the minimum is far too low, I still believe ability, knowledge and talent where it's needed should be rewarded.

Not that it always works that way either.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

TWFP is terribly flawed as is, which i why the conservative government has shut down the program for the food industry. Franchises were bypassing the rules of the program and were not even trying to hire local, they just submitted their app and got foreign workers.
Mcdonalds says they did this because the foreign workers were more reliable and harder working, they claim they pay them more than local workers but i assume that is bs.

Alberta used this program more than any other province, and in that time saw a 4% increase in unemployment. It is true alot of people dont want to do these jobs when times are good, but when the job market slows these industries have been back ups for many families.

Sorry for going on a tangent, that program just irks me, and the conservative government has been an absolute nightmare the past few years. This coming from a conservatard.

Its kind of shocking the that "The Harper Government" even considers itself to be conservative given the temporary foreign workers program and over the top spending. Didn't Harper expand government when he first came in? Where is this "accountability" he raved about before being elected? Apparently staying quiet and going on trips to avoid facing the scandals is considered accountability to him.

Unfortunately, its a political disaster considering how bad Harper's government has been and yet he still seems like a better option compared to the Liberals and NDP. You'd think Trudeau would be pushing the accountability and transparency angle but instead he's playing rock-star by taking his clothes off at events, pushing for marijuana and telling anti-abortionists they can't be a part of his party.

I might consider voting NDP just to get the Harper Government out of there, Mulcair has looked good playing the opposition role, but its been easy when he's been handed one scandal after another.

 

[Supereem]

It applies to Canada as well and I would say it is essentially the basis of the desire for hardcore capitalism in our nation-states.
But having worked in "Hard-Working Sectors" like manual labour (assembly) and entry level trades (framing and demo) the variety of these jobs do not get "Hard-Working Americans" ahead.

In fact in Canada these jobs, without bonuses, would not even be able to climb out of the first tax bracket.

If I worked 8 hours a day for every weekday the job I am in now I would only make 27,000. I think these people certainly deserve more. In fact in order to climb out of the first tax bracket (40,000 income) they would have to work 91 overtime shifts over a 365 day work year.

I don't even know any workplace with that much overtime available.

So, the point. You can be as hard-working as you want, but as mistreatment of workers and unfair wages are so common it won't get you anywhere, except for poverty.

Hard work isn't just doing your job. If you have a skill in a trade you need to learn to use it in a way to make big money. Someone with a building background could easily get into property development since they can literally do some of the work themselves and probably buy wholesale.

As a lawyer I wish I had a manual labour skill to cut costs on my developments.

If you worked hard to think outside the box you wouldn't be bitching.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

Hard work isn't just doing your job. If you have a skill in a trade you need to learn to use it in a way to make big money. Someone with a building background could easily get into property development since they can literally do some of the work themselves and probably buy wholesale.

As a lawyer I wish I had a manual labour skill to cut costs on my developments.

If you worked hard to think outside the box you wouldn't be bitching.

How exactly is becoming a lawyer "thinking outside the box?"

It isn't realistic to expect everyone to simply "think outside of the box." The reality is that not everyone has the same capacity regarding intelligence and physical abilities. This means there are limits to what any given person can achieve within a society.

There are also limits in terms of job availability. There are limits to property development jobs and trust me it isn't that "easy" to just become a property developer just because one may have the ability. There are a lot of politics involved that discourages competition within that area. There are limits as to how many people can be employers because they need people to work for them.

I'm not arguing that people should all be paid exactly the same wages, but given the limitations of available high-end jobs, the limitations regarding individual capacity, and the fact that there are certain "low-level" jobs that someone has to do, you would think raising the wage standards at the bottom level of the employment ladder wouldn't be so controversial.

 

[Deleted member 457759]

I think the baby boomer generations were hard working, today not so much. Up here in Canada we have a really good military history in ww1 and ww2. There were objectives on the battle field the Americans couldn't take that we took. But that was a generation of farm boys who signed up to fight. The worked in fields. Most of these ***s today live in cities.