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International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. VII

Oh, look another misrepresentation of the interaction that we had. Why don’t you just quote the posts of our interaction instead instead of summarizing and misquoting source material as you love to do.

Why would I do that when the poster literally right above me already directly quoted you. That would be redundant.

The worst and most cynical interpretation of my stance would be called minimization or deflection. A more accurate description would be challenging your narrative that “The evil Israeli peope are starving Gaza!”. The reality is that the humanitarian crisis has very little to do with settler violence - that was the crux of the argument which was a counter point to your one sided take.

This isn't the only case where you do this. In literally every valid criticism of Israel, you do some kind of deflection, excuse making or whataboutism.

And then just blindly support any pro Israeli story - such as the beheaded babies narrative.

But hey, you’re the same poster on here who claims that the Jewish lobby has bought and sold American politics, so why would I even bother engaging with you?

The Jewish lobby doesn't have a very strong influence? Is that what you're claiming?
 
Why would I do that when the poster literally right above me already directly quoted you. That would be redundant.



This isn't the only case where you do this. In literally every valid criticism of Israel, you do some kind of deflection, excuse making or whataboutism.

And then just blindly support any pro Israeli story - such as the beheaded babies narrative.
The post was a follow up to a conversation we were having. It obviously serves you to present it out of context so that you can dishonestly present the argument. It’s not too hard to understand lol.
 
The post was a follow up to a conversation we were having. It obviously serves you to present it out of context so that you can dishonestly present the argument. It’s not too hard to understand lol.

This isn't the first time I've replied to you saying you're making excuses and deflecting. This is multiple times.

I've noticed you're very reluctant to answer my question of the Jewish lobby's influence.

Why are you calling me out for saying the Jewish lobby is strong, but when I ask you directly about it, you avoid the question?

I'll ask again for the 3rd time: Are you claiming the Jewish lobby doesn't have a very strong influence in American politics?
 
Oh, look another misrepresentation of the interaction that we had. Why don’t you just quote the posts of our interaction instead instead of summarizing and misquoting source material as you love to do.

The worst and most cynical interpretation of my stance would be called minimization or deflection. A more accurate description would be challenging your narrative that “The evil Israeli peope are starving Gaza!”. The reality is that the humanitarian crisis has very little to do with settler violence - that was the crux of the argument which was a counter point to your one sided take.

But hey, you’re the same poster on here who claims that the Jewish lobby has bought and sold American politics, so why would I even bother engaging with you?
i mean, the AIPAC are a massive donor to the republican party. like massive.
 
i mean, the AIPAC are a massive donor to the republican party. like massive.
They’re definitely a powerful lobby.

It’s just a matter of the framing of their power and influence which becomes problematic.

“AIPAC is a powerful special interest group (one of many that exist) which lobbies for Israel.”

Vs.

“The Jews have bought Washington via their singular and unique (mal)influence.”
 
“The Jews have bought Washington via their singular and unique (mal)influence.”

I never said this and I don't recall seeing anyone else saying this either. Stop lying.
 
How about all the Senators funded by the Jewish lobby?

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I never said this and I don't recall seeing anyone else saying this either. Stop lying.

How about we follow the context of this conversation so that we can see your framing of unique bipartisan influence of the Jewish lobby. “Every US senator takes Israel lobbyist money.” Care to comment on what you meant in the context of that exchange?
 
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Should we post dig for ya like we have in the past?

Counting on it. Already assumed you would do so to get some "gotcha" on me.

How about we follow the context of this conversation so that we can see your framing of unique bipartisan influence of the Jewish lobby. “Every US senator takes Israel lobbyist money.” Care to comment on what you meant in the context of that exchange?

Yea the Israel lobby is strong. That's why I posted that chart to show their influence.

You know like this statement.

“AIPAC is a powerful special interest group (one of many that exist) which lobbies for Israel.”


I never said they're the ONLY singular and unique mal-influence like you're suggesting. Like some huge conspiracy.

What a dumb reach.
 
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Counting on it. Already assumed you would do so to get some "gotcha" on me.



Yea the Israel lobby is strong. That's why I posted that chart to show their influence.

You know like this statement.




I never said they're the ONLY singular and unique mal-influence like you're suggesting. Like some huge conspiracy.

What a dumb reach.
Do you think every senator gets money from other special interest groups as you suggested of AIPAC? What other special interest groups have such extensive bipartisan influence? I am curious.
 
Do you think every senator gets money from other special interest groups as you suggested of AIPAC? I am curious.

Of course they do. Who the hell doesn't know that.

Seems you like making all these ridiculous assumptions about people opposed to Israel's actions.

They just can't be normal and sane and against Israel's actions at the same time. They have to believe some retarded and ridiculous conspiracy.
 
What other special interest groups fund every senator?

I never stated there were singular special interest groups that funds every single Senator.

Just that every Senator gets funding from special interest groups. That's 2 completely different statements.

Also never stated AIPAC funds EVERY Senator.

I simply posted a chart that showed which Senators did get funding and how much.

Why don't you just go by what I actually said instead of your imagination.
 
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I never stated there were singular special interest groups that funds every single Senator.

Just that every Senator gets funding from special interest groups. That's 2 completely different statements.

Also never stated AIPAC funds EVERY Senator.

I simply posted a chart that showed which Senators did get funding and how much.

Why don't you just go by what I actually said.
The title of what you posted verbatim says “every US senator takes Israel lobbyist $”
 
The title of what you posted verbatim says “every US senator takes Israel lobbyist $”

Actually I didn't bother counting the amount of Senators on that chart until just now. There are 98 Senators there.

So it appears 98 out of 100 Senators have taken money from Jewish lobbies.

Not aware of any other special interest lobbies that does this, but there could possibly be others like Big Pharm or Big Oil. Didn't look it up.

I look up which politicians take what money on OpenSecrets.org which has a High Credibility Rating and deemed Least Biased under the Bias Rating on MediaBiasFactCheck.

 
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Actually I didn't bother counting the amount of Senators on that chart until just now. There are 98 Senators there.

So it appears 98 out of 100 Senators have taken money from Jewish lobbys.

Not aware of any other special interest lobbies that does this, but there could possibly be others like Big Pharm or Big Oil. Didn't look it up.

I look up which politicians take what money on OpenSecrets.org which has a High Credibility Rating and deemed Least Biased under the Bias Rating on MediaBiasFactCheck.
So do you still think that I misrepresented the content of your post?
 
So do you still think that I misrepresented the content of your post?

Yes you misrepresented - I never stated other lobbies weren't as strong or stronger. I'm pretty sure the pharmaceutical industry and the military industrial complex have stronger lobbying power, but didn't bother looking it up.

Regardless, the Jewish lobby has a ton of influence. That's why the US cucks for Israel all the time, even against our own self interest.
 
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I never said this and I don't recall seeing anyone else saying this either. Stop lying.
I would say though that whilst significant lobbying obviously exists my guess is that its very much a two way thing, that is I suspect there is a very strong pro Israeli culture in US foreign politics, looking at Biden's background it seems pretty clear he's been part of it since the 70's. Its not just the Israeli's buying influence but working in very fertile ground with IMHO groups like AIPAC often being viewed as a more effective way to silence dissenters, looks better for them to go after someone like Llhan Omar that it does for the Pro Israeli Dems to do it themselves.

Backing Israel against US interests I don't think is just lobbying basically but rather the result of political culture in the US, when certain viewpoints become basically unmentionable(Criticism of Israel) in mainstream political/media culture it ends up with poor decisions being made even if you look at things purely in amoral realpolitik.

Its often talked about that US foreign policy is self serving but a lot of the criticism of Neoconervatism is that its actually ideological, the ideology at a base level maybe self serving(such as anti communist views in the mid 20th century) but those making the decisions are often true believers in it.

 
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I would say though that whilst significant lobbying obviously exists my guess is that its very much a two way thing, that is I suspect there is a very strong pro Israeli culture in US foreign politics, looking at Biden's background it seems pretty clear he's been part of it since the 70's. Its not just the Israeli's buying influence but working in very fertile ground with IMHO groups like AIPAC often being viewed as a more effective way to silence dissenters, looks better for them to go after someone like Llhan Omar that it does for the Pro Israeli Dems to do it themselves.

Backing Israel against US interests I don't think is just lobbying basically but rather the result of political culture in the US, when certain viewpoints become basically unmentionable(Criticism of Israel) in mainstream political/media culture it ends up with poor decisions being made even if you look at things purely in amoral realpolitik.

Its often talked about that US foreign policy is self serving but a lot of the criticism of Neoliberialism is that its actually ideological, the ideology at a base level maybe self serving(such as anti communist views in the mid 20th century) but those making the decisions are often true believers in it.


I sort of agree that there is a political culture of pro-Israel that all of these politicians buy into. But I am pessimistic and don't think any of these politicians would back Israel if it meant lose their job and being voted out. Biden has been in the game too long that I don't think he can make the pivot; I think he still believe supporting this war is the right political play.

I also agree that AIPAC is a boogeyman. The amount of money they are donating in the grand scheme of things isn't that much. Their influence was being talked about even before Citizen's United case and their donations were capped.

When people talk about money and influence in politics, I think they focus too much on donations and funding campaigns. I think there are a lot of advantages in American politics to support Israel; there are some really sizable institutions that are pro-Israel (or at least, anti-anti-Israel) and going against that gives a needless headwind. AIPAC just becomes a proxy for Israeli interests similar to how the NRA is a proxy for pro-gun interests. It's not AIPAC itself that matters, but when they go against a candidate it is a signal that those interests will make that candidate's re-election as difficult as they can.
 
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