International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. VII

[Hog-train]

All these remote bombing videos coming out remind me of the Iraq War bombing that Julian Assange released.

Israeli advocates do not give a fuck about killing civilians. Great job.

 

[mjfan23]

Gaza starvation could amount to war crime, UN human rights chief tells BBC

Volker Türk tells Jeremy Bowen there is a "plausible" case that Israel is using starvation as a weapon of war.

www.bbc.co.uk

Can Israel prevent this from becoming a full blown genocide?

Can? Of course. Would? LMAO

 

[Islam Imamate]

Tbh regardless of who's right and who's wrong (assuming is possible have such answer), i find kinda bizzarre how people expect israeli civilians should all be against what's going on... some sure are, some of course are not

Bit of history and the fact this happened
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel
And wiki goes light on some of the barbaric shit side (wich sure leave a mark on people's mind) and palestinians celebrations afterwards

Is guarantee a % of Israel population would be on "good, fuck them" no matter how ugly it gets

That logic goes both ways with long running ethnic conflicts.

Is this MAGA pre election campaign post ?
Donald too is OLD ! And when you will elect Donald expect more support from U.S to Israel than from Dems...

How strong was Trump when reduced number of troops in Afganistan from 8500 to 2500 and after this blame about all shit Biden?
Ofc..... elect Trump and STFU.

Great way to describe it.

Acting like anything that happens during a certain presidents term is necessarily their fault is just low IQ posting. The campaign against the Rohingya started in 2017, would that be Trump's fault? I would say no but a hack will reach for anything like that to play partisan politics.

 

[Blayt7hh]

All these remote bombing videos coming out remind me of the Iraq War bombing that Julian Assange released.

Israeli advocates do not give a fuck about killing civilians. Great job.

All these videos of hamas fighters parading naked dead women around.

Palestinian advocates don’t give a fuck about rapists and murderers. Great job

See I can reduce someone’s viewpoints to make it look bad too. This is called reductive argument and it is never productive

 

[Islam Imamate]

my suggestion, if you want a very provocative name for this without the legal scrutiny, it would be using the term "massacre" rather than "genocide". Don't need a court case or legal ruling, the meaning is flexible, and it can more or less be used to describe the totality of this and concern about targeting and proportionality.

Massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Given that I don't yet agree with "indiscriminate bombing", I'm not going to call this a "massacre", but I will give a lot less pushback. Genocide however is far-fetched given its specifics of destroying a group which is a high bar. Over egging the pudding for shock value, which just leads to people debating the term and not the subject matter itself.

I think describing what is done in the West Bank as ethnic cleansing is reasonable. Its not a legal category so there is no one definition but its generally defined as the use of force and intimidation to remove expel one ethnic group for the purpose of establishing a demographic majority for another and I think that describes the expulsion campaign in the West Bank. What makes it less obvious is that Israel does it slowly and often through negligence and bureaucratic processes rather than overt military action the way you see in Myanmar against the Rohingya.

By analogy, there is a difference between a death being accidental, manslaughter or murder. Death is still bad, manslaughter is still a crime, but murder carries more weight and therefore has a higher standard.

Accidental, means that it was beyond your control and not your fault. Manslaughter more or less means you were negligent and reckless. Murder means you intended to do it and you don't have a self-defense claim. Self-defense requires proportionality and imminent threat.

They are being, in my view, overly and unnecessarily harsh regarding the aid distribution and shooting themselves in the diplomatic foot. As for the bombings, I'm on the fence, not enough evidence in my view, it's fairly speculative.

You have individual soldiers having accidents, being reckless, being negligent and in some rare cases, being caught admitting to committing murder. The ICJ case is against the state, not the soldiers. There isn't enough to get the state itself yet, imo.

But generally speaking, if Trump, Biden and Schumer are in agreement that Israel is losing the optics war, then they definitely fucking something up.

I've posted an article here a few times from the left wing Israeli magazine +972 who did an investigation and claimed to have anonymous sources from within the IDF.

They did not claim that there was indiscriminate bombing but rather that they use a very loose criteria to establish targets and seem pressured to generate lots of them. Its like setting an unofficial quota for arrests in a PD. The officers won't arrest people at random, they will look for those whom they have a plausible pretense to arrest. But in many cases that will mean making arrests that aren't about public safety but rather about satisfying certain optics which does lead to injustice and sometimes the pretense is flimsy.

Here's an excerpt

According to the sources, the increasing use of AI-based systems like Habsora allows the army to carry out strikes on residential homes where a single Hamas member lives on a massive scale, even those who are junior Hamas operatives. Yet testimonies of Palestinians in Gaza suggest that since October 7, the army has also attacked many private residences where there was no known or apparent member of Hamas or any other militant group residing. Such strikes, sources confirmed to +972 and Local Call, can knowingly kill entire families in the process.

In the majority of cases, the sources added, military activity is not conducted from these targeted homes. “I remember thinking that it was like if [Palestinian militants] would bomb all the private residences of our families when [Israeli soldiers] go back to sleep at home on the weekend,” one source, who was critical of this practice, recalled.

Would we be okay with Ukraine blowing up apartment buildings in Russia where off duty soldiers live? Idk that there's an obvious answer but I think its morally dubious. Here's another excerpt

The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it.

That to me comes off as collective punishment. The AI thing is pretty creepy too. If there's sufficient human oversight I can see the value but with the number of targets Israel has went after during the war I am skeptical that there's a lot of vetting.

 

[Cajun]

election year. had to be done.

Would agree here. Lots of things change when you are looking for votes.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Would agree here. Lots of things change when you are looking for votes.

Biden is damned if he does and damned if he don't.

 

[Cajun]

Biden is damned if he does and damned if he don't.

Agreed. The protests and backlash from the pro Palestinian crowd have to have an impact on him. You are absolutely correct.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Agreed. The protests and backlash from the pro Palestinian crowd have to have an impact on him. You are absolutely correct.

I imagine they do but I also think people are underestimating how much of this is personal between Bibi and Biden. Bibi had a bad relationship with the Obama admin back in the day and was seen as undermining Obama when he spoke in front of Congress at the behest of the GOP.

That said I don't think Biden would do anything here that he didn't think was reasonable and right.

 

[Cajun]

I imagine they do but I also think people are underestimating how much of this is personal between Bibi and Biden. Bibi had a bad relationship with the Obama admin back in the day and was seen as undermining Obama when he spoke in front of Congress at the behest of the GOP.

That said I don't think Biden would do anything here that he didn't think was reasonable and right.

I'm too cynical on politicians I guess. I think he is finally responding to the border for that reason. But I cannot say either way definitively on his motivation here as I can't get in his mind. He may just think it's going overboard now but who knows. Ultimately he will try to balance both sides and its not possible.

 

[Bacco]

That logic goes both ways with long running ethnic conflicts.

I agree, but there's this idea where some seem to think it's reasonable to expect palestinian civillians to hate israeli and side with hamas, while israeli civillians are supposed to be all against IDF/Netanyahu retaliation

Once you remove ideologies and "team" internet people chose to pick/defend, reality is both populations have solid reasons to want others dead

 

[Ruv]

 

[kflo]

I agree, but there's this idea where some seem to think it's reasonable to expect palestinian civillians to hate israeli and side with hamas, while israeli civillians are supposed to be all against IDF/Netanyahu retaliation

Once you remove ideologies and "team" internet people chose to pick/defend, reality is both populations have solid reasons to want others dead

What the anti-israel crown NEVER addresses is actually putting themselves in the shoes of israel, and what they should do to secure their people. Nor do they address what it means to the people of Gaza if Hamas is still the governing body of Gaza going forward. They can’t seem to even acknowledge that as of right now, Hamas is still the governing body. And with that, there is literally zero chance for the people of Gaza to have a better future. They will never have sovereignty, never have autonomy, never have freedoms being led by a terrorist state. And of course, the anti-israel crowd will just come back calling the idf terrorists, and offering no path forward.

 

[Koya]

Al Shifa hospital massacre is something I have never seen anything close to in my lifetime. The videos are behind inhumane. Been out of the thread because of it.

 

[Denter]

What the anti-israel crown NEVER addresses is actually putting themselves in the shoes of israel, and what they should do to secure their people. Nor do they address what it means to the people of Gaza if Hamas is still the governing body of Gaza going forward. They can’t seem to even acknowledge that as of right now, Hamas is still the governing body. And with that, there is literally zero chance for the people of Gaza to have a better future. They will never have sovereignty, never have autonomy, never have freedoms being led by a terrorist state. And of course, the anti-israel crowd will just come back calling the idf terrorists, and offering no path forward.

You are right, this is a persistent problem; non western people have agency as well. And if one uses the imagination, to imagine being an Israeli politician, you start to realize there just aren't a lot of great choices.

 

[Islam Imamate]

What the anti-israel crown NEVER addresses is actually putting themselves in the shoes of israel, and what they should do to secure their people. Nor do they address what it means to the people of Gaza if Hamas is still the governing body of Gaza going forward. They can’t seem to even acknowledge that as of right now, Hamas is still the governing body. And with that, there is literally zero chance for the people of Gaza to have a better future. They will never have sovereignty, never have autonomy, never have freedoms being led by a terrorist state. And of course, the anti-israel crowd will just come back calling the idf terrorists, and offering no path forward.

This is basically the "Free Palestine from Hamas" talking point. I agree Hamas is bad and Gazans are better off without them or at least without the military commanders who dragged them into war like Yahya Sinwar and Muhammad Deif.

But after Hamas is removed, then what? High level Israeli politicians have already said they won't tolerate a two state solution. What is the alternative? Certainly those same politicians aren't going to endorse a one state solution with equal rights.

The Palestinians in the West Bank are not led by Hamas and yet they are still subject to displacement. If anything Hamas before Oct 7th at least protected Gazans from that while the PA rule in the West Bank leaves Palestinians at the mercy of settlers. This is what Zionist posters like you will never address. You will never put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinians who have no options before them except using explosions of violence to shake the status quo.

 

[moreorless87]

Acting like anything that happens during a certain presidents term is necessarily their fault is just low IQ posting. The campaign against the Rohingya started in 2017, would that be Trump's fault? I would say no but a hack will reach for anything like that to play partisan politics.

I disagree, those events happened largely outside of the US sphere of influence, Biden on the other hand is obviously in a position of very strong influence and has directly helped to facilitate what is happening in Gaza.

He's rushed though massive amounts of military aid to Israel avoiding oversight from the house as much as he possible can.

 

[mjfan23]

What the anti-israel crown NEVER addresses is actually putting themselves in the shoes of israel, and what they should do to secure their people. Nor do they address what it means to the people of Gaza if Hamas is still the governing body of Gaza going forward. They can’t seem to even acknowledge that as of right now, Hamas is still the governing body. And with that, there is literally zero chance for the people of Gaza to have a better future. They will never have sovereignty, never have autonomy, never have freedoms being led by a terrorist state. And of course, the anti-israel crowd will just come back calling the idf terrorists, and offering no path forward.

That would all be cool and understandable if Israel didn’t for decades before hamas was even born: illegally increase its occupation of Palestinian land, kill, violate international law, treaties and engage in ethnic cleansing. Hamas is just the current excuse.

Offer a path forward: lol thats only for debates on a karate forum! Facts all point to Israel being hellbent on and actually wiping out Palestinians

 

[SammyPops]

Al Shifa hospital massacre is something I have never seen anything close to in my lifetime. The videos are behind inhumane. Been out of the thread because of it.

I've asked this before with no answers here. If Hamas is in that hospital, does it not demonstrate that the IOF has failed as this hospital and city was cleared?

 

[Rholk]

Al Shifa hospital massacre is something I have never seen anything close to in my lifetime. The videos are behind inhumane. Been out of the thread because of it.

Why am i not surprised that the biggest terrorist hub since the start of the war getting fucked by the IDF upsets you?
The only thing getting massacred in there is Hamas' dream of a resurgence behind IDF lines.