International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. VI

[AnGrYcRoW]

1. Countless Israel ministers and leading government officials explicitly expressing ethnic cleansing and genocidam intent with comments like nuking Gaza, turning it into Auswitz, reducing it to tents, creating a new Nakba, damage not accuracy, wanting to create mass shock, cleansing Gaza, that there are no civilians, that Palestinians should jump in the sea, denying two state solutions, and the list goes on,

2. Siege and starvation tactics withholding aid, food and fuel to civilians, thousands upon thousands of tonnes of bombes dropped, 60 percent of all residential buildings destroyed, healthcare system destroyed, almost two million people displaced, half a million starving, 60.000 injured, 20.000 killed mostly women and children with still thousands under the rubble, disease spreading like wildfire, much of Gaza made unihabitable, safe zones bombed, humanitarian disaster and uniform outcry of war crimes.

3. An ever increasing number of accounts and videos of the IDF killing unarmed people in cold blood, including their own hostages and soldiers with a 20 percent friendly fire rate, sniping women and children, executing people, kidnapping, humiliating and torturing civilians, bulldozing monumental, hospitals and churches, making sport out of terrorising.

It couldn't be more out in the open and still people pretend like it isn't happening or if it is, that it doesn't matter, or that you shouldn't believe it. The gaslighting makes it even more evil. "I know we explicitly said that we want to bomb these people back to the stone age, that we want them gone, that we killed tens of thousands of them, that we are starving them, that we prevented them from getting aid and medical relief, that we destroyed their clinics and hospitals, their buildings, homes and crops, that our soldiers shot first and asked later, but, we never killed anyone, never committed war crimes, and we never did anything bad and if you repeat back to us what we did or said, you support terrorist and hate Jews ". The propaganda is nazi level stuff.

Well said

 

[AnGrYcRoW]

Tell me it's not deliberate

Well when your killing indiscriminately shit like that is going to happen.

 

[AnGrYcRoW]

I wasn't the one to make the silly comparison. You can't again me when I'm the one trying to point out that it was stupid from the start. The Palestinians never stopped getting buttfucked because they literally never stopped hostilities.

You acknowledge it was stupid from the start but kept trying to do it .....


Ok I guess , I understand I suppose, your position is incredibly hard to defend .

 

[Samjj]

Of course the Jewish people said yes to the partition plan. They were a minority of the population and owned less than 10% of the private land, yet were somehow awarded 55% of the land. Why the hell would the Arabs say yes to that?

Regarding any attacks, Jewish militia groups started battling and throwing out Palestinians way before 1947.



This is an often repeated talking point of Israeli proponents when they talk about the 2000 Camp David Summit. "We offered 95% of their territory back but they rejected it!"

But when you delve into the actual details, that's kind of bullshit.

The initial land would only be 73% and then in 10–25 years, slowly would get the some of the land released over years. On top of that, the land would have been divided into 3 territories separated by Israeli land.

Furthermore, the eastern border of the West Bank would be under Israeli control.



They rejected it because the offer was bullshit. It never offered true sovereignty. Under this supposed great offer:

1. Israel would be able to deploy their troops in their territory.
2. Have Israeli radar stations inside the state.
3. Have a permanent security presence along their eastern border with Jordan,.
4. Palestine would have to get Israeli approval for any alliances with anyone.
5. The water resources in the West Bank had to be managed by Israel and shared.
6. Only a maximum of 100,000 Palestinian refugees can return for family reunification or humanitarian reasons. When about 725,000 Palestinians were forced to be refugees.
7. Have the West Bank carved up with Israeli land.

Right of return is pretty much a nonstarter, fyi. It’s a diplomatic way to push for a defacto one state solution.

And your comment regarding attacks, there was back and forth violence. If we’re honest, Arabs massacring Jews preceded Jewish violence.

List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Rholk]

Bit of context to the "the IDF randomly blows up houses!"

IDF destroys terror targets, buildings in Gaza's Shijaiyah

Military forces locate vast amounts of weapons and fighting equipment while clashing with terrorists firing at them from civilian homes in the Gaza City neighborhood

www.ynetnews.com

https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/december-pr/tunnel-shaft-near-a-school-and-combat-gear-in-civilian-areas-the-188th-brigade-s-operations-in-the-shejaiya-area/

Soldiers find bomb in Shejaia medical clinic, seize weapons, 'UN' vest - IDF

The clinic was located next to a school, as shown in a video released by the IDF on Tuesday.

m.jpost.com

Troops find explosive device hidden in Gaza health clinic

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Hog-train]

Right of return is pretty much a nonstarter, fyi. It’s a diplomatic way to push for a defacto one state solution.

And your comment regarding attacks, there was back and forth violence. If we’re honest, Arabs massacring Jews preceded Jewish violence.

List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Yes I'm aware Israel will never agree to the right of return for all the refugees. They would never let the demographics spiral out of control where Jewish people are not the majority.

But that goes against the common narrative that they're this beacon of democracy with equal rights for everyone. They definitely prioritize Jewish people over others, including some discriminatory laws.

This is untenable for the future though. Eventually the Arab minority in Israel will start to become a much more sizable percentage of the population because their birthrates are higher. They're either going to have to institute some kind of draconian measures to limit birthrate or change their laws to become more egalitarian.

 

[Samjj]

Yes I'm aware Israel will never agree to the right of return for all the refugees. They would never let the demographics spiral out of control where Jewish people are not the majority.

But that goes against the common narrative that they're this beacon of democracy with equal rights for everyone. They definitely prioritize Jewish people over others, including some discriminatory laws.

This is untenable for the future though. Eventually the Arab minority in Israel will start to become a much more sizable percentage of the population because their birthrates are higher. They're either going to have to institute some kind of draconian measures to limit birthrate or change their laws to become more egalitarian.

I am not so sure the demographics will reflect that. Do you object theoretically to a Jewish majority state?

 

[Hog-train]

I am not so sure the demographics will reflect that. Do you object theoretically to a Jewish majority state?

Nope. A lot of the Arab countries are much, much worse with Sharia law being the norm. Completely understand a historically persecuted people wanting a home for themselves, especially after one of the largest attempted genocides in human history.

However, I'm also going to call a spade a spade and not fall for propaganda. Israel (or their proponents) keep doing false advertising as if they're a Western style egalitarian democracy, which they're not. And that Israel never did any wrong and are complete innocents in all this.

The Palestinians got fucked in 1947 and that's the objective truth. And the root cause of this long conflict is the decades long occupation and illegal settlement activity. People keep gaslighting and denying this reality, so that's why I push back.

And until the root problem is solved, this conflict will never end. Of course that is bad for all Palestinians, but at the end of the day, this is not good for Israelis either. There needs to eventually be some sort of compromise.

 

[Samjj]

Nope. A lot of the Arab countries are much, much worse with Sharia law being the norm. Completely understand a historically persecuted people wanting a home for themselves, especially after one of the largest attempted genocides in human history.

However, I'm also going to call a spade a spade and not fall for propaganda. Israel (or their proponents) keep doing false advertising as if they're a Western style egalitarian democracy, which they're not. And that Israel never did any wrong and are complete innocents in all this.

The Palestinians got fucked in 1947 and that's the objective truth. And the root cause of this long conflict is the decades long occupation and illegal settlement activity. People keep gaslighting and denying this reality, so that's why I push back.

And until the root problem is solved, this conflict will never end. Of course that is bad for all Palestinians, but at the end of the day, this is not good for Israelis either. There needs to eventually be some sort of compromise.

Western democracies including European democracies have historically had ethnic majorities with national religious identities. I think that point has been played out already in this thread.

On one hand you can say the Palestinians were delt a bad hand in ‘47 but at what point can you accept a reality of Israel’s existence and condemn violent resistance. I hear a lot if implicit justification from you for that strategy in seeing the Palestinian plight but I don’t also hear accountability for failure of Palestinian leadership to renounce violence and compromise.
The recognition of the PLO/PA of Israel’s “right to exist” betrays the notion with on the ground incitement in their messaging and in their schools which still promotes martydom and violent resistance to liberate Mandatory Palestine.
Palestinians have been delt a bad hand, but hardlining and promoting violence has only worsened their position. They will never get a better offer than the Clinton Parameters ever again…

 

[Blayt7hh]

What kind of lame ass excuse is this? It’s like a 5 yr old’s “he started it” defense. The other side not respecting the rules of war IS NOT an excuse for Israel to abandon the rules of war. Last I checked Israel was a signatory to the Geneva conventions. Also, Israel is getting billions in weapons and aid from the US to prosecute this war, they should be held to a different and much higher standard than Hamas. Absurd.

They still have to follow Geneva yes. However Geneva allows for a lot of leeway when the enemy is fighting the way Hamas does. There is precedent for it as well. Look up war crimes in Vietnam and read how they weee able to get away with most of them.

Sadly I think this war is exposing something that was present in past wars but not fully upfront the way it is in this one. That is that the laws of war are more idealism than they are practical and maybe not realistic.

 

[Hog-train]

On one hand you can say the Palestinians were delt a bad hand in ‘47 but at what point can you accept a reality of Israel’s existence and condemn violent resistance. I hear a lot if implicit justification from you for that strategy in seeing the Palestinian plight but I don’t also hear accountability for failure of Palestinian leadership to renounce violence and compromise.

I never justified Palestinian violence nor denied Israel's right to exist.

The recognition of the PLO/PA of Israel’s “right to exist” betrays the notion with on the ground incitement in their messaging and in their schools which still promotes martydom and violent resistance to liberate Mandatory Palestine.
Palestinians have been delt a bad hand, but hardlining and promoting violence has only worsened their position. They will never get a better offer than the Clinton Parameters ever again…

The Palestinian Authority has affirmed Israel's right to exist a few times already during potential peace talks in the past. And their president already denounced the 10/7 attacks saying they do not represent the Palestinian people. And then you have some extremists celebrating death on social media. It's not a monolith.

A good reminder that often the worst of both groups are the loudest and trend the most. I have seen certain Jewish platforms deny child deaths and mock photos of deceased Palestinians. This is wrong. Yet where is the Israeli leadership denouncing that or any of the things Israelis soldiers or settlers do wrong?

Obviously not all Jewish people are doing this and not all Palestinians are hardlining and promoting violence.

 

[Koya]

None of this addresses the political agreements brokered by the US or international communities towards a two-state solution. You're just babbling about irrelevant squabbling resulting from the impasse of the conflict.

You didn't even attempt to address the one-sided efforts by Israeli leaders I cited towards two-state agreements. Nearly every one of those was in writing.

My son was sick I had to tend to him hence why I stopped. Couldn't stop but wondering how Gaza parents do when their children have a sick night in their tents in the mud. Now here we go :

Maybe take another good look at the Oslo Accords. Or should I say a first look ?

Basically, Palestine was serious enough about a two-state solution that it signed the two accords with Israel. This created the Palestinian Authority and set a timeline to 1999 to negotiate a final-status accord for the State of Palestine to be created and recognized by all.

The process stumbled with internal Israeli politics and unrest and culminated with the assassination of the prime minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an extremist Zionist who represented those who want to evict all arabs from their lands - note : this ideology is today in power with the Religious Zionist Party being in the Israeli government - then after the interim of Shimon Peres, Benjamin Netanyahu took power and created some delays due to his nationalistic stance. He resumed the illegal settlements, put some impossible conditions and for the 3 years of his office did everything he could to twart a two state solution from being done.

When his successor Ehud Barak took the position, Palestinians didn't trust Israel anymore for good reasons and negotiations at Camp David broke down on key topics such as Jerusalem as the capital. Palestinians offered share the administration of this symbolic city in both religions, with the western half belonging to Israel and the eastern one to Palestine. Israel refused any negotiation and discussion on this point and that twarted the attempts. The Palestinian having already given many huge concessions (no military force only a police, many intern territory security monitored by israel and so on) saw it as it was : a blatant sign of bad faith.

Source: [Britannica] (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Oslo-Accords)

The Palestinians who were promised a state within 5 years felt cheated by the whims of ksraeli intern politics. In this context, the Palestinian Authority that was supposed to be temporary turned into a more permanent outfit.

Israel is clearly at fault for a couple of things there. First, Ariel Sharon made a provocative visit to the Al-Aqsa Mosque, which triggered the Second Intifada. This made Israel tighten the screw of occupation with the pretext of better security in response to suicide bombers. I remember those bombings. Nasty stuff.

Then, Israel went for dark magic. It withdrew from Gaza without an agreement and further made it a sealed territory with little access to its neighbor and no functional airport. Israel also facilitated the rise of Hamas, which wants no peace agreement. This weakened the Palestinian Authority and marginalized attempts at putting peace talks together.

Israel turned Hamas into a convenient enemy that can more easily get the West to back Israel in whatever it does, just as today. There's no way that demolishing Gaza would have been accepted before those events.

 

[Samjj]

I never justified Palestinian violence nor denied Israel's right to exist.



The Palestinian Authority has affirmed Israel's right to exist a few times already during potential peace talks in the past. And their president already denounced the 10/7 attacks saying they do not represent the Palestinian people. And then you have some extremists celebrating death on social media. It's not a monolith.

A good reminder that often the worst of both groups are the loudest and trend the most. I have seen certain Jewish platforms deny child deaths and mock photos of deceased Palestinians. This is wrong. Yet where is the Israeli leadership denouncing that or any of the things Israelis soldiers or settlers do wrong?

Obviously not all Jewish people are doing this and not all Palestinians are hardlining and promoting violence.

There is a lot of double talk from the PA.
To Western sources they condemned the attack on Oct 7th.
In Arabic, they made an official written statement the day after the quoted a Hadith(Quran?) which commands you to strike out at the Jews hiding behind trees. So recognizing Israel’s right to exist and supporting “diplomacy” in an international forum is very different than their actual internal messaging.

There is definitely Israeli leadership condemning settler violence.

 

[Koya]

"Why are Palestinians so angry after those repeated and relentless horrific treatments. Must because they hate Jews, not because we persecute them" - Average IDF supporter

 

[Rational Poster]

You acknowledge it was stupid from the start but kept trying to do it .....


Ok I guess , I understand I suppose, your position is incredibly hard to defend .

I wasn't 'trying' to do it. I'm merely pointing out reasons why doing it makes no sense.

 

[Koya]

The hospital and medical system has been so utterly destroyed that children are being stitched on their cranium without anesthesia. Result of the deliberate bombing and demolition of hospitals, ambulances and kidnapping of medical staff by the so called IDF

I won't embed the link out of respect for the forum rules, because it could maybe be considered gore, anyone who wants to see justem have to write "reddit" correctly in the url, replacing the "a" by a "e":

https://www.raddit.com/r/palestineisrael1/comments/18nhs42/injured_children_in_gaza_are_being_stitched/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb

 

[Koya]

MUST SEE: Palestinian man tells how IDF forces palestinian civilians to pretend they're hamas fighters while they shoot a propaganda video



It seems like most videos of "Hamas fighters" are like that, poor civilians being handcuffed kept on their knees without a drop of water from 5AM to midnight, and then shooting a propaganda video saying they captured hamas.

The fact that they feel forced to do it proves that they haven't met they military goals at all, which was the eradication of hamas, which in turn means what we know : it has been and is being a relentless onslaught and slaughter of Palestinian CIVILIANS, not hamas militants

 

[Koya]

This is why you and nearly everyone I see who advocates for the Palestinians aren't taken seriously by rational adults wielding common sense. She never said she wants those Gazans to go drown in the sea. She said she didn't care. She's conveying that collateral casualties, including civilian casualties, the ones that have so irrefutably been argued in this thread to be the responsibility of Hamas, are not her priority within the scope of her duty to her state. Her priority is to the sustainable safety of the people who elected her.

She most definitely isn't bandying "genocidal speech", LOL.

What is genocidal speech to you ?

Because when your army literally destroys one half of the infrastructure of a territory, absolutely annihilates the medical system which now operates at 30% capacity according to Doctors Without Borders, kills 30K people, injures more that 100K people, makes thousands of cripples, starve half the population, displaces 1.5M people and destroys their home, cuts off free access to energy and qupplies, drops 900KG bombs on civilian areas, shoots its own hostages, fires 400 to 600 bombs a day, sign up its bombs with autographs, has genocidal songs that top the chart for weeks, has children choirs singing they will anihilate life in gaza and THEN

you say you couldn't care less about civilian they can go off and drop in the sea for all you care

It is genocidal speech by everyone standard on earth EXCEPT genocide supporters of course

Which are you ?

 

[The_Renaissance]

"Why are Palestinians so angry after those repeated and relentless horrific treatments. Must because they hate Jews, not because we persecute them" - Average IDF supporter

That is fucking awful like.

 

[Samjj]

That is fucking awful like.

Looks like a poor guy.
I would just be suspicious of uncoroborated reports from reddit. This report very well could be someone with cancer (he looks cachectic and is with a catheter) and they are misattributing his situation to detainment.
Horrible if true though.