International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. V

[Hog-train]

Do you think innocents in Gaza have any hope for a future with Hamas in power? Their “limited means” is enough to oppress and rule gaza.

And do you see any way for hamas to lose their hold of Gaza naturally?

The innocents in Gaza do not have any hope for a future even if Hamas is gone. Their situation will still be the same - under a shitty occupation.

 

[Sano]

Nah. Burning and raping kids is the worst. Easy. Requires zero thought. Whichever side burns and rapes kids is the worst. Anyone arguing otherwise is a cunt. I keep saying it because and day with me on this they burned and raped kids. I’m not letting any asshole try and swerve around that. You’re defending burning and raping kids. Anything other than yeah burning and raping kids is the worst is whataboutism at best. Just say they burned and raped kids are therefor irredeemable. Then we can talk. Until then you support bringing and raping kids. After you take the absolute millisecond it required to do that we can’t talk about Israel. One side burns and rapes kids, the other doesn’t. I back the non burning and raping kids side. This is the easiest decision I’ve ever made.

I'm not defending anyone other than the civilians, Hamas are irredeemable. I have no issue saying that. However, to claim that Israel haven't killed, bombed, murdered, burned, and yes, even raped, children is factually incorrect. Not only that, they have killed up to 8.000 children through bombing - which includes being burned - and you don't bat an eye. They are denying food and water to tens of tousands of children who are starving to death. As I said, if killing 50 children is wrong, how wrong is killing 8.000? It boggles my mind that you can't comprehend that or pretend like being starved, bombed and mutilated to death by the thousands isn't morally reprehensible.

 

[Hog-train]

I'm not defending anyone other than the civilians, Hamas are irredeemable. I have no issue saying that. However, to claim that Israel haven't killed, bombed, murdered, burned, and yes, even raped, children is factually incorrect. Not only that, they have killed up to 8.000 children through bombing - which includes being burned - and you don't bat an eye. They are denying food and water to tens of tousands of children who are starving to death. As I said, if killing 50 children is wrong, how wrong is killing 8.000? It boggles my mind that you can't comprehend that or pretend like being starved, bombed and mutilated to death by the thousands isn't morally reprehensible.

The cognitive dissonance boggles my mind too. Either they don't really care or they believe Israeli propaganda wholesale and don't believe it's as bad as it really is.

 

[Blayt7hh]

No, it makes no sense.

If a Hamas terrorist shot a child in order to kill an Israeli soldier, not one person on this forum would say it was acceptable.

Not one.

That is the level of hypocrisy at play.

What are you talking about? If a Hamas fighter hit a child trying to shoot an IDF Soldier, I would definitely be alright with it. Not because it’s ok that it happened, it’s just that logically I understand that collateral damage happens in war. These two sides are at war with each other now.

I had the misfortune of watching a Hamas fighters video on October 7th as he intentionally mowed down a little boy that was hiding in a bunker. There was no way to be OK with that.

They declared war on Israel that day. Like it or not they are the ruling government of Gaza. They committed atrocities and are now hiding among civilians to try and survive against the IDF. I don’t see how anyone can think Israel should just let them get away because they exploit their own citizens for protection.

That’s just an insane expectation. Let them get away to potentially do it again when they’re ready to protect their citizens? Israel should sacrifice the safety of its own citizens because Hamas chooses to put their citizens in imminent danger?

 

[meauneau]

.

 

[deviake]

The Iraq war had hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties.

Possibly over a million and that wasn't all from clearing houses, not even close. And you know that. And Palestine is even more complicated. That's the point.

 

[meauneau]

 

[meauneau]

Now if that was a Muslim saying this there's 0 chance he would be given a platform like this one was given. But because he is a Jew he can get away with saying whatever he wants. The protected class.

It's funny because this is the kind of stuff people think is conspiracy theories but then they find out they are true

 

[cincymma79]

I'm not defending anyone other than the civilians, Hamas are irredeemable. I have no issue saying that. However, to claim that Israel haven't killed, bombed, murdered, burned, and yes, even raped, children is factually incorrect. Not only that, they have killed up to 8.000 children through bombing - which includes being burned - and you don't bat an eye. They are denying food and water to tens of tousands of children who are starving to death. As I said, if killing 50 children is wrong, how wrong is killing 8.000? It boggles my mind that you can't comprehend that or pretend like being starved, bombed and mutilated to death by the thousands isn't morally reprehensible.

This is drivel. Back up and try again. This isn’t some random person doing this. This is government sanctioned and promised to be repeated. This is wrapping a mom and child in wire and burning them to the point of needing imaging to determine there are two bodies AND saying you’ll do it again every chance you get

 

[kflo]

Possibly over a million and that wasn't all from clearing houses, not even close. And you know that. And Palestine is even more complicated. That's the point.

i don't know what you mean. the point is the us and co didn't just go door to door in iraq. you know this. and gaza is more dangerous to just attempt to go door to door, it's not logical military approach.

 

[kflo]

The innocents in Gaza do not have any hope for a future even if Hamas is gone. Their situation will still be the same - under a shitty occupation.

again, that's just bullshit, and completely absolves hamas from their accountability for conditions in gaza.

focus on your own city, and make it great, instead of focusing on eliminating your neighbor.

 

[kflo]

I'm not defending anyone other than the civilians, Hamas are irredeemable. I have no issue saying that. However, to claim that Israel haven't killed, bombed, murdered, burned, and yes, even raped, children is factually incorrect. Not only that, they have killed up to 8.000 children through bombing - which includes being burned - and you don't bat an eye. They are denying food and water to tens of tousands of children who are starving to death. As I said, if killing 50 children is wrong, how wrong is killing 8.000? It boggles my mind that you can't comprehend that or pretend like being starved, bombed and mutilated to death by the thousands isn't morally reprehensible.

hamas is irredeemable. good. we're in agreement there.
hamas must be eradicated. they lost any right to exist on 10/7 and israel needs them completely eliminated. this is non-negotiable. ultimately, this benefits the palestinian people as well.

this is hopefully a starting point that people can agree upon.

from there, civilian deaths are unavoidable, given how hamas operates and how gaza has been built. but i know this is where it gets alot more complicated. but if we can't even agree on the above, then we have no common ground. just saying hamas is irredeemable is empty without part 2.

 

[Hog-train]

again, that's just bullshit, and completely absolves hamas from their accountability for conditions in gaza.

focus on your own city, and make it great, instead of focusing on eliminating your neighbor.

Not absolving Hamas of anything. I'm pointing out the reality of the situation. The people in Gaza are fucked.

 

[SammyPops]

Every time someone shows an instance of civilians being killed, you're answer is "human shields," "but human shields."

Well shouldn't you show some proof of that then?


According to your logic, Israel can literally do anything they want. They can throw a nuke on the whole place and it'd be ok because there are tunnels there.

And how about all the other hospitals like Indonesian Hospital that got bombed?

This is required by the pro-Israel side, as their actions over the past decades are a house of cards.

Gabor Mate outlines this very well on a recent Piers Morgan

 

[kflo]

Not absolving Hamas of anything. I'm pointing out the reality of the situation. The people in Gaza are fucked.

actually you are. you're trying to suggest what they've lived through is just a given. and not a function at all of being led by a murderous bunch of terrorists who suffocate their people and divert resources to terror activities. you are completely absolving them.

again, prioritize developing your own city, investing in your people, and things can be great there. the idea that it can't is absurd.

 

[Hog-train]

actually you are. you're trying to suggest what they've lived through is just a given. and not a function at all of being led by a murderous bunch of terrorists who suffocate their people and divert resources to terror activities. you are completely absolving them.

again, prioritize developing your own city, investing in your people, and things can be great there. the idea that it can't is absurd.

The Palestinians lived a shitty life in Gaza before Hamas even existed. Now what they have (after Hamas is gone) is half or more of their infrastructure completely obliterated AND they'll still be under occupation.

 

[cincymma79]

The Palestinians lived a shitty life in Gaza before Hamas even existed. Now what they have (after Hamas is gone) is half or more of their infrastructure completely obliterated AND they'll still be under occupation.

I bet if they vote in a group that wants all Jews everywhere dead, take all the supplies sent in to make weapons, rape and burn a few kids it’ll work out perfectly

 

[kflo]

The Palestinians lived a shitty life in Gaza before Hamas even existed. Now what they have (after Hamas is gone) is half or more of their infrastructure completely obliterated AND they'll still be under occupation.

israel left gaza to the palestinians in 2005 and the first thing they did was elect hamas. they have never accepted gaza as their home, as they believe israel belongs to them. and that's been their focus.

the infrastructure will be rebuilt, but will they accept gaza as their home?

 

[Madmick]

I must have missed some meta-argument outside Sherdog where the consistent Palestinian chirp to destroy Israel, cloaked in the classic "from the ____ to the sea" phrase, was erroneously conflated with a call for genocide?

That was never (at least explicitly) a call for genocide, but it has always been cited as an example that Palestine doesn't sincerely desire a two-state solution. You guys are screwing this up with your victim complex.

 

[Hog-train]

israel left gaza to the palestinians in 2005 and the first thing they did was elect hamas. they have never accepted gaza as their home, as they believe israel belongs to them. and that's been their focus.

the infrastructure will be rebuilt, but will they accept gaza as their home?

The settlers left Gaza in 2005 but the territory was still under Israeli occupation with the air space, border and shoreline controlled by Israel.