International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. V

[Deleted member 585708]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67687628

Israel finally accept they have no support from the international community.

And acting as extremists do, say they won't let up the bloodshed despite being a pariah state.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

BS - They wanted one Palestinian state not divided while respecting the Jewish and other minorities. That is no way shape and form saying they wanted all Jewish people dead or gone.

And how about the end:

"According to Benny Morris, Ben-Gurion and Weizmann saw it "as a stepping stone to some further expansion and the eventual takeover of the whole of Palestine".

Bad faith to begin with. Jewish leadership wanted ALL of Palestine eventually.

Do you understand that I'm agreeing with you? The Arabs wanted all of Palestinian as their state and would not negotiate any part of it being a sovereign Jewish state. I'm sure they would have given Jews and Christians their rights in this Palestinian state, with the extent depending on what type of government they had (secular democracy, caliphate etc.). 5 Arab nations attacked Israel because they didn't want them to have any part of Palestine as their own, and they lost. Even after they lost, they couldn't accept it, and wouldn't declare a state on the 1967 borders. They are their own worst enemies at times.

And yes, I'm sure that a lot the Jews wanted all of Judea and Samaria for Isreal. I can't speak for all of them though.

 

[Bob Gray]

Nice sidestep on the other post. Not going to answer ?

What's the proof that Hamas uses human shields ? Like they literally walk with other humans in front of them ? give me proof that is not Israeli army or Israeli/US media. It's a bogus claim, humanitarian organizations led investigations and found that it's false :


All the sources and reports are referenced here : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict

I have proof that Israel uses gazans as human shields :

- 2008-2009 operation cast lead :



- 2009 to the 2014 war :


- 2022 :

Again all references and sources are here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict

- May 2023 (oh and they used Palestinians children) :

Israeli forces use five Palestinian children as human shields

Israeli forces have used at least five Palestinian children as human shields in the first part of 2023, according to documentation collected by DCIP.

www.dci-palestine.org

- July 2023 in west bank



- November 2023 in the west bank :

Israeli army in West Bank uses Palestinian detainee as human shield

Incident took place early Friday after Israeli army raided the Fawwar refugee camp near Hebron, eyewitnesses say - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Still defending them I guess ? Because of creed isn't it ?

https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf

Trying to argue Hamas doesnt use human shields is a weird hill to plant a flag on.

I said it earlier in the thread, but Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are advocate groups. They arent officials, journalists, experts or anything would make a source from them somehow an authority on anything, Theyre a politically opinionated group that puts out their editorials and theyve had constant criticisms for cherry picking their information and selection bias. Im not saying not to use them, but I am saying just posting something from AI or HRW alone isnt a very good source for anything.

 

[HereticBD]

Most moral army in the world

LOL @ "moral army"

What "moral armies" do you know of? I'm gonna guess "none", because if one ever existed, they're all dead. Killed by the "less moral" armies. Too funny at how you guys think that war is a game of hopscotch.

 

[Hog-train]

Do you understand that I'm agreeing with you? The Arabs wanted all of Palestinian as their state and would not negotiate any part of it being a sovereign Jewish state. I'm sure they would have given Jews and Christians their rights in this Palestinian state, with the extent depending on what type of government they had (secular democracy, caliphate etc.). 5 Arab nations attacked Israel because they didn't want them to have any part of Palestine as their own, and they lost. Even after they lost, they couldn't accept it, and wouldn't declare a state on the 1967 borders. They are their own worst enemies at times.

And yes, I'm sure that a lot the Jews wanted all of Judea and Samaria for Isreal. I can't speak for all of them though.

If you were an Arab Palestinian during that time, why in the hell would you agree to a whole bunch of Jewish people from SOMEWHERE ELSE get a sovereign state in YOUR territory?

Palestine was ruled by the Ottomans for years , then the British ruled them. They finally had a chance for their own state and autonomy. They said they would respect all minority rights in the area, but want to be their own independent state. That's a reasonable thing that they wanted.

It's just facts man. The Palestinians got displaced and got fucked.

 

[William Munny]

"Hamas Official Sami Abu Zuhri Urges Violence Against American and British Interests, Labels Blinken and Netanyahu as Enemies"​

Hamas Official Sami Abu Zuhri Urges Violence Against American and British Interests, Labels Blinken and Netanyahu as Enemies - NewsBreak

• Sami Abu Zuhri, a senior official of Hamas, has called for acts of violence against American, British, and other countries' interests that support Israel. • He made these comments during a show on Al-Aqsa TV, a Hamas-Gaza channel, on December 5, 2023.

share.newsbreak.com

I wonder which side progressives will back on this, lol

 

[San Marino]

It's just facts man. The Palestinians got displaced and got fucked.

Indeed.

I might have disagreed with you on a lot of things in the Russian/Ukraine thread but agree with you on most everything you are saying on this thread.

To your statement. Yeah, kind of how we Americans did with the American Indians. The more we moved west, the more land got taken from the Indians -- and a lot of Indians got killed in the process. I mean, the U.S. Army (Cavalry) slaughtered thousands of Indians to keep settlers safe. They now have reservations, but is that the same as having a homeland? Why not something similar for the Jews of Palestine. Jewish reservations. Isn't that what Gaza and the West Bank have become? Palestinian reservations.

By the way, the American Indians were already fighting each other for land prior to Americans arriving in the continent. Kind of like how the Jews and Arabs were fighting each other for land prior to the creation of Israel.

Israel-Arab Conflicts: Before the Creation of the State of Israel

www.adl.org

"A federal Indian reservation is an area of land reserved for a tribe or tribes under treaty or other agreement with the United States, executive order, or federal statute or administrative action as permanent tribal homelands, and where the federal government holds title to the land in trust on behalf of the tribe."

 

[San Marino]

Oh, so they don't chant "the school are empty because we killed all children in Gaza" with utter joy:

They don't bring singers to happily chant "we will finish off Gaza"?

They didn't make children sing "bombs and destruction, within a year we will annihilate everyone in Gaza"

Yeah, sounds like people that cheer when Palestinians children die to me. Open your eyes, you might be a Jew but we are all humans before our creed. Some things are unacceptable, or we lose that humanity.

...but, but, we went through the holocaust. "Never again - whatever the cost."

Also, great recruitment propaganda for Hamas. Their numbers keep going up.

 

[Strychnine]

I wonder which side progressives will back on this, lol

This progressive backs the people that don't have "all Jews must die" in their charter.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

LOL @ "moral army"

What "moral armies" do you know of? I'm gonna guess "none", because if one ever existed, they're all dead. Killed by the "less moral" armies. Too funny at how you guys think that war is a game of hopscotch.

And you think it's written by George RR Martin lmao

Any nation with a vastly superior army should at least be able to loosely operate with some level of morality.

It isn't a story about the nastiest boy king to ever live lol

 

[mkess101]

Can't believe it took so long for the "Derp I want proof Hamas uses their citizens as human shields!" rhetoric to get tossed out there.

Pretty sad that someone would be so morally bankrupt that they'd feel the need to go that route in order to criticize what Israel is doing. There's plenty to criticize about Bibi's government without selling your soul to deflect blame away from Hamas. Yet...some of you sad sacks just can't help yourselves.

 

[HereticBD]

Any nation with a vastly superior army should at least be able to loosely operate with some level of morality.

How? Not killing anyone? How many kills in your mind reaches the "immoral" threshold? Like, a hundred is totally moral, but a thousand isn't? Lay down the ground rules for "morality" in war.

And no. Strong and superior military forces exist for a reason, and it's not for show if some dumb motherfuckers get all emboldened by terrorist sympathizers like yourself, and attack a superior military force. It's not Golf, dip shit. There are no handicaps.

 

[Rational Poster]

If you were an Arab Palestinian during that time, why in the hell would you agree to a whole bunch of Jewish people from SOMEWHERE ELSE get a sovereign state in YOUR territory?

Palestine was ruled by the Ottomans for years , then the British ruled them. They finally had a chance for their own state and autonomy. They said they would respect all minority rights in the area. That's a reasonable thing that they wanted.

It's just facts man. The Palestinians got displaced and got fucked.

They weren't there from somewhere else though by the time of the treaty they had lived there, legally, since the 1880s. All the land was purchased. Then in addition to that both parties were promised land in the region for their military service in both world wars.

Israelis just wanted their own autonomy as well and earned it through service just the same way. Almost no Arabs would have been displaced from the 1948 agreement nearly only Jews would have been displaced. The land partition was specifically designed to give each party the land they mostly resided in currently and historically.

 

[kflo]

If you were an Arab Palestinian during that time, why in the hell would you agree to a whole bunch of Jewish people from SOMEWHERE ELSE get a sovereign state in YOUR territory?

Palestine was ruled by the Ottomans for years , then the British ruled them. They finally had a chance for their own state and autonomy. They said they would respect all minority rights in the area. That's a reasonable thing that they wanted.

It's just facts man. The Palestinians got displaced and got fucked.

Do you think Israel deserves to exist as a Jewish state?

 

[Deleted member 585708]

How? Not killing anyone? How many kills in your mind reaches the "immoral" threshold? Like, a hundred is totally moral, but a thousand isn't? Lay down the ground rules for "morality" in war.

And no. Strong and superior military forces exist for a reason, and it's not for show if some dumb motherfuckers get all emboldened by terrorist sympathizers like yourself, and attack a superior military force. It's not Golf, dip shit. There are no handicaps.

You're not differentiating between 'kills' because you're a bit silly.

Kill as many Hamas terrorists as you like, arrest the rest, but as every single country on Earth has now repeatedly said, avoid civilian casualties.

The Israeli strategy is "kill the terrorist regardless of the citizens", which is why they're now considered around the world to be extremist nationalist monsters.

And yeah I know: dumb dumbs like you have already tried to rationalize that completely unacceptable strategy over and over and over.

 

[kflo]

You're not differentiating between 'kills' because you're a bit silly.

Kill as many Hamas terrorists as you like, arrest the rest, but as every single country on Earth has now repeatedly said, avoid civilian casualties.

The Israeli strategy is "kill the terrorist regardless of the citizens", which is why they're now considered around the world to be extremist nationalist monsters.

And yeah I know: dumb dumbs like you have already tried to rationalize that completely unacceptable strategy over and over and over.

Avoid civilian casualties while they drape themselves with civilians. They themselves don’t even differentiate.

 

[HereticBD]

You're not differentiating between 'kills' because you're a bit silly.

One is collateral damage, and the other is not. It doesn't matter when you're talking about "morality", though. "Morality" would involve not killing anyone.

Kill as many Hamas terrorists as you like, arrest the rest, but as every single country on Earth has now repeatedly said, avoid civilian casualties.

Every single country on Earth, huh? OK Tik Tok historian...

The Israeli strategy is "kill the terrorist regardless of the citizens", which is why they're now considered around the world to be extremist nationalist monsters.

And yeah I know: dumb dumbs like you have already tried to rationalize that completely unacceptable strategy over and over and over.

It's a perfectly acceptable strategy, when those terrorists that you love so much, hide among civilians, in what is basically a hallway.

Your amazing strategy, that you would totally love if you were neighboring a terrorist state:

"Just leave the terrorists be. They're hiding among civilians. You can't possibly go after them. Let them rape and murder us until their heart's content."

Does it hurt your heart that Israel doesn't give a fuck about what you morons think? "Total annihilation of Hamas". That must sting your terrorist loving heart. Ah' well...

 

[Deleted member 585708]

Avoid civilian casualties while they drape themselves with civilians. They themselves don’t even differentiate.

Blocks of housing wiped out.
61 % civilian death rate (it's about 30 % for most 20th century wars).
A higher civilian death rate than other Palestine-Israel wars, even.

Extensive and historic killing of civilians does fuck all to protect Israel.

It makes it less safe.

The fact they're murdering more civilians than they ever did in the past tells you all you need to know about the "Hamas use human shields" bullshit.

You'd think every Hamas terrorist carried at least 2 civilians on their body at all times, which is a cartoon so inconceivably stupid only extremists could believe it.

Are you actually an extremist, kflo, are just extremely ignorant?

 

[Deleted member 585708]

One is collateral damage, and the other is not. It doesn't matter when you're talking about "morality", though. "Morality" would involve not killing anyone.


Every single country on Earth, huh? OK Tik Tok historian...


It's a perfectly acceptable strategy, when those terrorists that you love so much, hide among civilians, in what is basically a hallway.

Your amazing strategy, that you would totally love if you were neighboring a terrorist state:

"Just leave the terrorists be. They're hiding among civilians. You can't possibly go after them. Let them rape and murder us until their heart's content."

Does it hurt your heart that Israel doesn't give a fuck about what you morons think? "Total annihilation of Hamas". That must sting your terrorist loving heart. Ah' well...

Do you even follow the news? TikTok lol

"It's a perfectly acceptable strategy" - except, no, it's not, and the statistics issued by Israelis themselves outline that rather obvious fact.

Gaza death toll surpasses 17,700 as Israel’s attack continues

Another 48,780 people have been wounded in incessant Israeli bombardment, Gaza health ministry says.

www.aljazeera.com

By all means, if you are so frantically emotional about all this that you can't tolerate Israel behaving like scum, you do you.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

If you were an Arab Palestinian during that time, why in the hell would you agree to a whole bunch of Jewish people from SOMEWHERE ELSE get a sovereign state in YOUR territory?

Palestine was ruled by the Ottomans for years , then the British ruled them. They finally had a chance for their own state and autonomy. They said they would respect all minority rights in the area. That's a reasonable thing that they wanted.

It's just facts man. The Palestinians got displaced and got fucked.

As an Arab in the Levant in the early 20th century, why would you believe that the entirety of Palestine was your territory? Back then Palestine wasn't a nation with land, and Palestinians weren't a people with a unique identity. Palestine was a region containing Arab Muslims, Jews and Christians (and others). People identified more with religious or local tribal affiliations than with a distinct national identity. Ottoman and Arab land owners sold their land to the Jews, why would the average Palestinian Arab think that the land that was sold and the entirety of the land from the Jordan to the Med was theirs when they never thought so before?

And to those that for some reason believed so, and went to war over it, that is their choice. But once they lost badly, a reasonable person would have rethought their national ambitions and declared a Palestinian state with what was left. They didn't however, they instead got absorbed by Egypt and Jordan until they lost another war in 1967. It wasn't until 1988 that they actually declared a state.