Gym/weight training confusion

[Eric Brown]

Ok so your kind of douchey. You dont "waste effort" on being polite to me because Im hiding behind a keyboard spouting crap? How else would we be doing this other than from behind a keyboard? You disagree with me, so what? I qualified many of my comments with "this is for a complete beginner" so what was so terrible about it? You made some statements that were not spot on yourself. Like saying "Maximal CNS adaptations occur with increases in recruitment...." Thats an odd way to put it. Increases in fiber recruitment is the adaptation that the CNS makes. Its the result of CNS adaptation, not the stimulus that creates it. So take it easy with your internet aggressive bullshit.

I am behind keyboard, yes. However, people here know me, and in at least one case, someone has stayed at my house while I have coached them. I am a known quantity, here and in the field of S&C. See the difference?

And a beginner needs not only hypertrophy, which is about all your routine provides, but skill and EP&P training (exercise prescription and programming) which your "routine" does not provide. A complete beginner will grown on just about anything, but learning a skilled lift takes time, and time wasted can never be regained. This is a fairly simply concept.

And this is not "internet aggressive." I am an asshole in real life. That being said, this is my field, and has been for decades. And both here and in real life, I have zero patience for people who argue despite their ignorance when they should be learning.

By way of example, I pretty much suck as an auto-mechanic. If I suggest something, and a bunch of people tell me I am wrong, I am not going to argue, I am going to do more research.

Arguing from ignorance is far more "douchey" that simply lacking patience with this crap. That being said, I am done wasting time.

Good luck with your training, I think you will need it.

 

[CarbonFistprint]

dsdoubled we have a trainer like you in my gym. A skinny pencil-necked weakling who trains fat chicks because they can see he's underweight and that's all they want to be. He runs them around in circuits of machine work, guaranteed to basically waste their gym time and keep them coming back forever.

It's actually a clever little scam he's got going.

But there will never be any respect for guys like that at the gym, or guys like you in this forum. I can have a goodnatured disagreegreement with guys like ripskater over training methods, for example, but I'll never have that with you because you seemingly fundamentally refuse to understand what strength training is.

Hint: it's not what you're telling people to use the gym to do.

I suggest you take your fat chick money and call it good. You're not winning anyone over here, or helping anyone, or offering a viable alternative to other people's opinions in the thread. Your ideas need work, and by that I mean put down the "health" magazines and pick up any of the real strength training books recommended in the FAQ, and broaden your horizons. Then go out and do some squats. Then come back and post.

 

[Tosa]

All this talk about CNS recruitment and adaptation is a bit beside the point.

If a beginner can't properly do the basic compound lifts, then the goal is to get them to the point where they can - because the compound lifts are based around fundamental physical skills. If a beginner can properly do the compound lifts - some beginners are very teachable or naturally athletic - then there's no issue.

So either way, the focus is the basic barbell lifts, or progressing towards them. And the progressions don't involve machine work or bodybuilding.

 

[dsdoubled]

dsdoubled we have a trainer like you in my gym. A skinny pencil-necked weakling who trains fat chicks because they can see he's underweight and that's all they want to be. He runs them around in circuits of machine work, guaranteed to basically waste their gym time and keep them coming back forever.

It's actually a clever little scam he's got going.

But there will never be any respect for guys like that at the gym, or guys like you in this forum. I can have a goodnatured disagreegreement with guys like ripskater over training methods, for example, but I'll never have that with you because you seemingly fundamentally refuse to understand what strength training is.

Hint: it's not what you're telling people to use the gym to do.

I suggest you take your fat chick money and call it good. You're not winning anyone over here, or helping anyone, or offering a viable alternative to other people's opinions in the thread. Your ideas need work, and by that I mean put down the "health" magazines and pick up any of the real strength training books recommended in the FAQ, and broaden your horizons. Then go out and do some squats. Then come back and post.

But your wrong on every level. So what now? We dont know each other Im not going to throw any specific insults at you bc i dont know you. See how that works? And why are u piggy backing the argument Im having with someone else? What should I do? Should I start listing my credentials, education, experience, etc? Should I link to fightfinder pages of the fighters I have trained or assisted in training (There not the greatest but not bad, nobody you wouldve heard of)? I mean its crazy to me that you get so personal on the fucking internet because you disagree with me, dont you feel stupid? Il let u have the last word since Eric Brown let me have it. Knock yourself out.

 

[CarbonFistprint]

But your wrong on every level. So what now? We dont know each other Im not going to throw any specific insults at you bc i dont know you. See how that works? And why are u piggy backing the argument Im having with someone else? What should I do? Should I start listing my credentials, education, experience, etc? Should I link to fightfinder pages of the fighters I have trained or assisted in training (There not the greatest but not bad, nobody you wouldve heard of)? I mean its crazy to me that you get so personal on the fucking internet because you disagree with me, dont you feel stupid? Il let u have the last word since Eric Brown let me have it. Knock yourself out.

I'm not affiliated with Mr. Brown. Nor do I need the last word. Go ahead and respond if you like. I'll just say this -- if you have any credentials, I'd love to know about them since then I'd know who not to trust anymore, since your advice and opinions run contrary to any sensible notion of strength training I've seen on this forum.

And that's saying something, since there's a wide variety of opinions here. It's just that several of them are at least partially valid. I'm not trying to attack you personally or hurt your feelings. I just need you to know your opinion needs help, and it isn't of any help here, as it stands.

I'm no longer a trainer, but was for three years. I compete in powerlifting and am in the midst of crossing over to lightweight strongman. I was a track competitor in HS and college. That's all I got, really. There are plenty better qualified and knowledgeable people here than me. But I've learned a few things.

And I mean no offense to you personally, but just keep your advice to yourself until it has some corresponding sense to it -- that's just my personal advice to you. You don't really need a shitstorm rained down on you every time you open your mouth, do you? That doesn't help anyone. And seriously, squats.

 

[dsdoubled]

I'm not affiliated with Mr. Brown. Nor do I need the last word. Go ahead and respond if you like. I'll just say this -- if you have any credentials, I'd love to know about them since then I'd know who not to trust anymore, since your advice and opinions run contrary to any sensible notion of strength training I've seen on this forum.

And that's saying something, since there's a wide variety of opinions here. It's just that several of them are at least partially valid. I'm not trying to attack you personally or hurt your feelings. I just need you to know your opinion needs help, and it isn't of any help here, as it stands.

I'm no longer a trainer, but was for three years. I compete in powerlifting and am in the midst of crossing over to lightweight strongman. I was a track competitor in HS and college. That's all I got, really. There are plenty better qualified and knowledgeable people here than me. But I've learned a few things.

And I mean no offense to you personally, but just keep your advice to yourself until it has some corresponding sense to it -- that's just my personal advice to you. You don't really need a shitstorm rained down on you every time you open your mouth, do you? That doesn't help anyone. And seriously, squats.

Fair enough, il just say this. I recommended 4 weeks of very simple, very easy, completely safe resistance training to someone who presented as being a complete and total beginner. And somehow people judge my entire ideaology and skills and a trainer as shit based on that! HAHA Thats kinda crazy ya know! And the friggin thread title says nothing about "Strength training". It was "gym/weight training confusion", neither the TS nor myself said anything about actual strength training in our first posts so I dont know why anyone would get on me about properly prescribing a strength training program. Its crazy but I guess thats the internet for ya. Jeez! I actually stand by everything I said and honestly, I will happily put my knowledge on the subject up against most people out there. It should be obvious that Im not claiming to be the absolute authority on the subject though.

 

[ironwolf]

Just do starting strength...lol

 

[magick]

Fair enough, il just say this. I recommended 4 weeks of very simple, very easy, completely safe resistance training to someone who presented as being a complete and total beginner. And somehow people judge my entire ideaology and skills and a trainer as shit based on that! HAHA Thats kinda crazy ya know! And the friggin thread title says nothing about "Strength training". It was "gym/weight training confusion", neither the TS nor myself said anything about actual strength training in our first posts so I dont know why anyone would get on me about properly prescribing a strength training program. Its crazy but I guess thats the internet for ya. Jeez! I actually stand by everything I said and honestly, I will happily put my knowledge on the subject up against most people out there. It should be obvious that Im not claiming to be the absolute authority on the subject though.

You'll realize fairly quickly that most people here are incredibly quick to judge based off a single thing that they disagreed with.

Best way to deal with that is either show that they're idiots or accept that you're wrong.

In this case, you were wrong. Very wrong. The program you listed is trash, regardless of whether you are a beginner or not. It is trash because you didn't write out its stated purpose. It is trash because you didn't bother to write out set/rep schemes. It is trash because you gave a program to someone whose actual goal and training history you don't even know.

And I have no idea how you think the bench press is any LESS technical or dangerous than the squat and the deadlift. Heck, I find the bench press the most technical and difficult lift out of the four basic barbell lifts. It never ceases to amaze me that people find it easier to do than the squat. Most people can't squat simply because they lack mobility, not because the squat itself is difficult to do.

And there is nothing wrong with a newbie doing the basic barbell lifts. You wrote it yourself- start with the bar and don't be an idiot.

Just because you are squatting doesn't mean that you have to be moving heavy weights, as you seem to believe. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you squatting under 200lb for the rest of your life. Heck, there is nothing wrong with squatting under 100lb, though it should be pretty easy for you to move past that within a couple of weeks at most.

And vice versa.

 

[Kerr Smash]

This thread was a fun read lol. Went places I didn't expect.

 

[JauntyAngle]

I have to say, if you *really* don't think that a beginner can't do the basic barbell lifts from the beginning, it would be much better to start them off on easier variants, e.g. goblet squats, dumbbell bench and dumbbell press. Because, after all, if they are going to be developing strength then they'll be mostly doing the main barbell lifts, and 4 weeks spent doing easier variants is going to be more helpful than 4 weeks using machines and doing lateral raises or whatever.

That being said, I can't really see how a beginner *couldn't* do the BB lifts in some form or other. If mobility with the squat is an issue, they can squat off a box, if mobility for the deadlift is an issue they can pull off blocks. I never met anyone who couldn't bench the bar plus some weight. (The press can be an exception, as some women can't press a standard empty bar when they start.)

I don't believe that a normal, reasonably active adult needs any additional preparatory movement- starting light and adding weight steadily ought to be sufficient. With this sort of approach it can be 3-6 weeks before it gets difficult heavy (depending on whether you start with the empty bar or with a bit more weight) and this ought to be enough preparation. If you have any concern with a particular trainee, you can make sure you do start low and progress more cautiously.

 

[nephel]

Heck, I find the bench press the most technical and difficult lift out of the four basic barbell lifts. It never ceases to amaze me that people find it easier to do than the squat.

I expect that's because most people doing bench press in any arbitrary commercial gym are doing it incorrectly. They find it easy, then they go to rehab for their rotator cuff injury.

 

[Joshua1991]

Thank u all for the info, I've read the FAQ and I'm gonna do the 5/3/1 program. It looks pretty legit! But one more question, what about conditioning? Can I or should I be doing conditioning while building strength?