Gym/weight training confusion

[dsdoubled]

Ignore posts like this.

Read the faq.

Let me guess,
the TS should be doing squats, deads, cleans, snatches, bent rows, overhead presses over at York Barbell Club and he should always break paralel in the squat etc etc etc. He didnt mention how strong n advanced he was until later in the thread. And for a true beginner, a routine like the one I outlined would be fine. Its just to get things moving. Its funny nowadays so many people are doing the things that only the most dedicated lifters did 15-20 years ago (which is great) but its not necessary for everybody and I would argue that for some its counter productive to adhere to a program with so many heavy, basic, lifts.

 

[dsdoubled]

This is completely backwards thinking. You don't want a lifter to build up some strength and then try to learn how to squat with heavier weights, that's a recipe for injury. Teach them the lifts when they are weak and the light weights will still be enough stimulation to get stronger. By the time they get up to using heavier weights their body will have adapted to the movements and they will have better form.

No Im not advocating he get a base of strength and then proceed directly to squatting/deadlifting with significant weights. Im advocating he get a base with the simple/safe workout, and then start from the very beginning with the staple lifts. Using an empty barbell or even a broom stick to learn the technique. Honestly I know this is blasphemy nowadays but for most of the people I train I dont even have them do freeweight squats, deads, olympic lifts, etc. Its just not necessary for a large percentage of lifters, even some of the athletes Ive worked with. I know Il get a ton of people flaming this theory but I have arrived at it bc Ive seen in the real world that for most, the juice isnt worth the squeeze when it comes to the heavier, more technical, lifts.

 

[DrBdan]

I don't see the point of building a base with machines or other "safe" workouts and then going back to incredibly light weights and starting again. Cut out the "safe" workouts and just go straight to barbell lifts with light weight.

 

[Ayin]

Yeah, arguing that some lifts require more training to become proficient at (say squats), and then saying that's why you should PUT OFF said lifts until later so achieving competency in those lifts is even further away, while spending your time doing limited imitations of those lifts instead (ie leg press) is likely not going to go over too well with anyone who can see the obvious flaw in that line of reasoning.

If someone is unable to perform a lift (say squat) for some reason, having them do something else that they can do (ie leg press) makes perfect sense. But if that persons only limitation is that they don't have the training/knowledge base necessary, then it makes no sense NOT to start on that as soon as possible.

Regardless, the gentelman who started the thread clearly has a solid base to work with. He can find a good program in the FAQ, lots of great articles (i recommend the old Keith Wassung ones), and if he has questions or concerns about his form, he can always post video of his lifts here to discuss them.

 

[The Day Walker**]

True I guess I shouldve listed a bit more detail like sets n reps nsuch. But the TS didnt mention til later that he had a good base already. But if your gona tell me a total beginner should be doing all the staples like deads, squats, cleans, etc thats just wrong. Everyone likes to preach that but its not always applicable, even to intermediate lifters. And for a newby its dangerous. 4-6 weeks of easier stuff is a good idea.

lol

yes a beginner can do all those compound lifts and should, with weight that they can handle. they will progress and their bodies will adapt, eventually adding more weight.

 

[The Day Walker**]

Let me guess,
the TS should be doing squats, deads, cleans, snatches, bent rows, overhead presses over at York Barbell Club and he should always break paralel in the squat etc etc etc. He didnt mention how strong n advanced he was until later in the thread. And for a true beginner, a routine like the one I outlined would be fine. Its just to get things moving. Its funny nowadays so many people are doing the things that only the most dedicated lifters did 15-20 years ago (which is great) but its not necessary for everybody and I would argue that for some its counter productive to adhere to a program with so many heavy, basic, lifts.

Would completely disagree. Watch this: http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/evidence_based_behavioral_practice

 

[Eric Brown]

Ya know, something like the 45 degree leg press or the cybex squat machine. This guy is a total beginner, there is no way in hell I would recommend freeweight squats, deads, or any of the more advanced or technical or heavy lifts to a complete beginner. I gave him a nice basic regimen just to get his muscles and cns firing.

Bullshit.

True I guess I shouldve listed a bit more detail like sets n reps nsuch. But the TS didnt mention til later that he had a good base already. But if your gona tell me a total beginner should be doing all the staples like deads, squats, cleans, etc thats just wrong. Everyone likes to preach that but its not always applicable, even to intermediate lifters. And for a newby its dangerous. 4-6 weeks of easier stuff is a good idea.

Horseshit.

So much shit, even the animals are pissed.

 

[Eric Brown]

Let me guess,
the TS should be doing squats, deads, cleans, snatches, bent rows, overhead presses over at York Barbell Club and he should always break paralel in the squat etc etc etc. He didnt mention how strong n advanced he was until later in the thread. And for a true beginner, a routine like the one I outlined would be fine. Its just to get things moving. Its funny nowadays so many people are doing the things that only the most dedicated lifters did 15-20 years ago (which is great) but its not necessary for everybody and I would argue that for some its counter productive to adhere to a program with so many heavy, basic, lifts.

Years ago the most dedicated lifters were competitive weightlifters. Guess what they started with?

With the advent of the bodybuilding culture, pussies started thinking they were "dedicated."

I mean, I am sure a heavy set of cheat curls requires the same amount of dedication as a heavy set of squats.

Or not.

And "get his CNS firing?" Where do you get this crap from? And "get things moving?" What does this even mean?

Starting with large, compound lifts trains the smaller muscles along with the larger muscles, builds skill, actually activates (limited) certain aspects of the CNS, etc. All of the things that high-rep machine training does not. Plus, should someone start with machines, they may experience a certain amount of hypertrophy, but still lack the strength, skill and stability they would have had if they did not waste time on an idiotic bodybuilding routine.

 

[CarbonFistprint]

Let me guess,
the TS should be doing squats, deads, cleans, snatches, bent rows, overhead presses over at York Barbell Club and he should always break paralel in the squat etc etc etc. He didnt mention how strong n advanced he was until later in the thread. And for a true beginner, a routine like the one I outlined would be fine. Its just to get things moving. Its funny nowadays so many people are doing the things that only the most dedicated lifters did 15-20 years ago (which is great) but its not necessary for everybody and I would argue that for some its counter productive to adhere to a program with so many heavy, basic, lifts.

Say it again, just those last three words.

heavy, basic, lifts?

Now you're getting it. Say it louder.

heavy, basic, lifts.

I can't hear you. Sound off like you've got a pair.

heavy, basic, lifts!

There. I knew something good could come of this garbage thread.

 

[dsdoubled]

Years ago the most dedicated lifters were competitive weightlifters. Guess what they started with?

With the advent of the bodybuilding culture, pussies started thinking they were "dedicated."

I mean, I am sure a heavy set of cheat curls requires the same amount of dedication as a heavy set of squats.

Or not.

And "get his CNS firing?" Where do you get this crap from? And "get things moving?" What does this even mean?

Starting with large, compound lifts trains the smaller muscles along with the larger muscles, builds skill, actually activates (limited) certain aspects of the CNS, etc. All of the things that high-rep machine training does not. Plus, should someone start with machines, they may experience a certain amount of hypertrophy, but still lack the strength, skill and stability they would have had if they did not waste time on an idiotic bodybuilding routine.

Get the CNS firing, meaning get the CNS into the habbit of recruiting a greater percentage of a given muscle's fibers. This is what is responsible for any strength/coordination gains any beginning lifter would experience in the first month or so. So I dont ever get into anything too significant until we have done about 1 month of rinky dink, easier stuff first. If I get even 1 lifter injured that could seriously screw with my reputation big time so I err wayyyy on the side of caution. Again, I would not have prescribed the routine that I did fior this guy if I knew he was already pretty friggin good. He came off like he had no experience at all.

 

[Squat More]

Dude, just give it up. I'd bet my last loonie that Eric has forgotten more about training and how to get strong than you're currently aware of.

True story brah.

 

[TheeFaulted]

Get the CNS firing, meaning get the CNS into the habbit of recruiting a greater percentage of a given muscle's fibers. This is what is responsible for any strength/coordination gains any beginning lifter would experience in the first month or so. So I dont ever get into anything too significant until we have done about 1 month of rinky dink, easier stuff first. If I get even 1 lifter injured that could seriously screw with my reputation big time so I err wayyyy on the side of caution. Again, I would not have prescribed the routine that I did fior this guy if I knew he was already pretty friggin good. He came off like he had no experience at all.

Okay, that makes sense: You're some kind of bullshit personal trainer. Of course you don't understand the very basics of strength training.

Its funny nowadays so many people are doing the things that only the most dedicated lifters did 15-20 years ago (which is great) but its not necessary for everybody and I would argue that for some its counter productive to adhere to a program with so many heavy, basic, lifts.

You really think only "the most dedicated lifters" we're squatting, benching and deadlifting in 1994-1999?

 

[Eric Brown]

Get the CNS firing, meaning get the CNS into the habbit of recruiting a greater percentage of a given muscle's fibers. This is what is responsible for any strength/coordination gains any beginning lifter would experience in the first month or so. So I dont ever get into anything too significant until we have done about 1 month of rinky dink, easier stuff first. If I get even 1 lifter injured that could seriously screw with my reputation big time so I err wayyyy on the side of caution. Again, I would not have prescribed the routine that I did fior this guy if I knew he was already pretty friggin good. He came off like he had no experience at all.

If it is easy or "rinky-dink," as you put it, the CNS is not recruited all that much. Maximal CNS adaptations occur with increases in recruitment (total motor units) and/or intensity. Given that you are avoiding the serious compound lifts, total motor unit recruitment is far less than if you were not. Given that you are not training heavy, which is about the only thing you are doing correctly, maximal CNS adaptations are not even close to occurring.

I would say not knowing what you are doing would hurt your reputation, but apparently not. Or possibly that is why you post inane crap under a screen name, to avoid damage to your "reputation."

And, of course, the TS is talking about strength training and you are using a body part split.

Really, you should ask questions instead of giving answers.

 

[dsdoubled]

Okay, that makes sense: You're some kind of bullshit personal trainer. Of course you don't understand the very basics of strength training.



You really think only "the most dedicated lifters" we're squatting, benching and deadlifting in 1994-1999?

I know this is the internet but Im curious, why would you say something like that? You know that Im a "bullshit personal trainer"? You know my education, certification, degree, experience, etc? Did I make a single comment here that would get somebody hurt or something? You really dont know shit right? Lets please not get into some kind of heated argument via the fucking internet, it cant possibly mean that much to you. Especially since I wasnt even debating anything with you. Unless your like 15 or something and if thats the case, by all means continue on, ive been there, youl grow up someday just like I did.

 

[dsdoubled]

If it is easy or "rinky-dink," as you put it, the CNS is not recruited all that much. Maximal CNS adaptations occur with increases in recruitment (total motor units) and/or intensity. Given that you are avoiding the serious compound lifts, total motor unit recruitment is far less than if you were not. Given that you are not training heavy, which is about the only thing you are doing correctly, maximal CNS adaptations are not even close to occurring.

I would say not knowing what you are doing would hurt your reputation, but apparently not. Or possibly that is why you post inane crap under a screen name, to avoid damage to your "reputation."

And, of course, the TS is talking about strength training and you are using a body part split.

Really, you should ask questions instead of giving answers.

See why you would start with the personal insults when I thought we were just having a debate is odd to me. Its such a bitch move man. Im not about to put my name and face on Sherdog when u know very well the kind of douchery that goes on here and on the internet in general. I guess if u wana continue this debate im down though just keep it within reason dont insult me ok?

 

[Eric Brown]

See why you would start with the personal insults when I thought we were just having a debate is odd to me. Its such a bitch move man. Im not about to put my name and face on Sherdog when u know very well the kind of douchery that goes on here and on the internet in general. I guess if u wana continue this debate im down though just keep it within reason dont insult me ok?

Because I no longer waste the effort of being polite upon people who hide behind their keyboard while obviously spouting crap.

We were not having a debate. You seriously over-estimate the quality of your responses if you think that was the case.

You have little working knowledge of exercise prescription and programming as it relates to proper strength training. Not enough to engage in a debate with anyone.

 

[Ayin]

See why you would start with the personal insults when I thought we were just having a debate is odd to me. Its such a bitch move man. Im not about to put my name and face on Sherdog when u know very well the kind of douchery that goes on here and on the internet in general. I guess if u wana continue this debate im down though just keep it within reason dont insult me ok?

If you wanted to debate, it likely would have been here where you would have been better off debating the technical points made, as opposed to concentrating on the personal attacks.

 

[dsdoubled]

Because I no longer waste the effort of being polite upon people who hide behind their keyboard while obviously spouting crap.

We were not having a debate. You seriously over-estimate the quality of your responses if you think that was the case.

You have little working knowledge of exercise prescription and programming as it relates to proper strength training. Not enough to engage in a debate with anyone.

Ok so your kind of douchey. You dont "waste effort" on being polite to me because Im hiding behind a keyboard spouting crap? How else would we be doing this other than from behind a keyboard? You disagree with me, so what? I qualified many of my comments with "this is for a complete beginner" so what was so terrible about it? You made some statements that were not spot on yourself. Like saying "Maximal CNS adaptations occur with increases in recruitment...." Thats an odd way to put it. Increases in fiber recruitment is the adaptation that the CNS makes. Its the result of CNS adaptation, not the stimulus that creates it. So take it easy with your internet aggressive bullshit.

 

[golvmopp]

^Literally NO ONE who reads this thread sides with you or expects this to turn out any other way than a thoroughly one-sided beating.

 

[SMillard]

I think we need a trial by combat, only way to settle this.