Law Gun Control: A Global Overview

[shockaholic12]

Seems like this could be abused by someone to stalk someone , the government to have some server that tracks and stores everywhere you go , as well as someone to breach that database, find some really good sources to steal guns and then removing the tracker. You know like a criminal business and not just like a dopefiend breakin in to grab whatever they get lucky enough to get

This is all in a perfect world pie in the sky nonsense because you feel helpless to the fact that real evil exists in this world and want to do something about it. The road to hell can be paved with the best intentions and you don't seem to have stress tested your great idea in the slightest

How many times have car's GPS systems been hacked by stalkers or the government and weaponized against citizens or used to steal them?

 

[terrapin]

There is no way to do so without having some form of tracking whether the item was in the safe such as having a "smart" safe that notes when a particular firearm is within it and when it is removed. That however would require some sort of RF chip or similar that the safe would pick up on. However, that doesn't cover scenarios where you are not at your home but do not actively have the firearm on you for some reason. For instance, you are visiting a relative and you are concealed carrying. You take the firearm off for some reason while there and they do not have a "smart" safe to store the firearm. One such scenario may be they have a pool and you will be swimming so you're obviously not wearing your firearm but may have it stored in the room you are staying in at said relative's home.

Or you have it with you concealed carry but will be entering a specific location where firearms are completely off limits such as a federal building such as a court. Typically the firearm owner would then leave the firearm in their vehicle.

Now, one could say the firearm owner should have a portable firearm safe, which exist but again it would require said safe to be able to tell when a given firearm is within the safe and when it was removed. All of which goes back to the problem of having something on the firearm itself that would allow for some form of tracking whether by good or bad actors.

Yes, but none of that sounds prohibitive to my mind. Being able to tell whether the gun was in a safe or not, does not or is not the same capability as being able to track that gun anywhere it goes. So I think there's not really a dichotomy there.

And I do think that you should have to have your gun in a safe in a vehicle if you leave it. And the same goes with a swimming pool. Yeah, I know it's inconvenient but the fact is you should have that gun and a freaking safe because that's the exact kind of scenario where a kid gets a hold of it and kills somebody on accident.

a smart, safe, smart gun scenario is not a problem technologically at all, nor is it too complex to distinguish between that and the safe needing to be in a car or the safe needing to be in a portable safe when you're swimming or what have you. There is complexity here but I think it's the kind of complexity that could save lives and isn't really that hard on the user.

Basically Smart, safe smart gun is not the same as the government being able to trace that gun anywhere you go.

The biometric triggers are a bigger problem though because now I'm thinking that they could fail as another poster as mentioned.

Basically, there ought to be criminal liability if you're done as stolen and it can be proven that you didn't have it stored securely and I think that would get most people afraid enough to take better care of their guns.

Just an example which directly involves a swimming pool, which is that we used to go swimming at my cousin's house and they're really good people and her husband has a shotgun and we were all playing and messing around around the pool and my daughter was in the house so I went into check on her and she was playing in the bedroom and I looked in his closet which was wide open and there was a loaded Mossberg shotgun leaning against the wall.

That is criminal negligence and if something had happened which didn't even come close to happening I think he should be held liable for that.

 

[terrapin]

While we are at it maybe we can jail people for wasting the cops time if they forgot to lock the door in the morning and someone robs them. Maybe rape victims for sexy clothing and being in public under the influence too. It's her fault for putting herself in that position.

Sounds absurd when you apply that logic to other crimes doesn't it.

Well, those examples are all absurd whereas the ones I'm proposing ie smart guns, smart safes and holding people liable for reckless storage of a gun is not a ridiculous position.

In fact, I think it would make people very motivated to take care of how they store their guns. All of my guns are in quick release safes rifle ones and a pistol safe and it's not any inconvenience at all. It's no problem at all and it's never been a problem and no one could ever convince me that it could be.

If a step like that is too much to take for a human being, maybe that person isn't mature enough to have a deadly weapon?

 

[terrapin]

I agree with that but feel it’s a measure that doesn’t help locate the gun until after is been used and we need to address that because the black market is absolutely out of control.

Well, I'm trying to prevent the gun being used in the first place by requiring all gun owners to keep them locked up in safes.

My bottom line with the location device on a gun is that it completely neuters the entire reason the human being should be able to carry a gun which is to protect itself from an oppressive government and then secondarily for self-defense in the woods or city.

It's no big deal. We don't have to argue about it, but it would not support your position on a tracking device on a gun.

 

[shockaholic12]

There is no way to do so without having some form of tracking whether the item was in the safe such as having a "smart" safe that notes when a particular firearm is within it and when it is removed. That however would require some sort of RF chip or similar that the safe would pick up on. However, that doesn't cover scenarios where you are not at your home but do not actively have the firearm on you for some reason. For instance, you are visiting a relative and you are concealed carrying. You take the firearm off for some reason while there and they do not have a "smart" safe to store the firearm. One such scenario may be they have a pool and you will be swimming so you're obviously not wearing your firearm but may have it stored in the room you are staying in at said relative's home.

Or you have it with you concealed carry but will be entering a specific location where firearms are completely off limits such as a federal building such as a court. Typically the firearm owner would then leave the firearm in their vehicle.

Now, one could say the firearm owner should have a portable firearm safe, which exist but again it would require said safe to be able to tell when a given firearm is within the safe and when it was removed. All of which goes back to the problem of having something on the firearm itself that would allow for some form of tracking whether by good or bad actors.

Smart trigger locks that pair with the owners gun. Don't need to travel with a safe.

 

[terrapin]

You got blood on your hands or are slick with sweat there's a good chance your bio trigger won't pull. You dont grip it perfect good chance it wont pull. What about gloves? You go down and your wife or kid picks up that weapon there's a good chance that trigger won't pull now because it's bloody dirty or wet. That bio trigger will get people.killed and it will make your weapon unreliable. Don't be fooled by that shit man it's a terrible idea and there's a lot of things that would make it fail under pressure that likely won't occur when life is calm. It's a fantasy that biological factors make an impossible reality.

Or how bout it's your drawer gun or its been in a safe for however long and now you need it right this second and the battery is dead. It's a terrible idea that deserves scorn and to be mocked.

I have become convinced that biometric triggers are not a good idea based on this thread and post like these.

I think I'm much more interested in criminal charges for if your gun gets stolen from you and is used in a crime and a legal requirement for smart safes and smart guns to that end only. What I mean by that is that the gun should know when it's in the safe and know when it isn't in the safe and so that if a crime is committed with your gun it can be proven whether or not you left. It locked up and it was still left him a locked safe or whether it was just stolen from your house because you negligently left it laying around.

Same for fun storage with cars and trucks.

I don't think I could be convinced that locatable traceable guns are a good idea because the government who might oppress you is the very government that would Trace where your gun is!!!!

 

[terrapin]

Smart trigger locks that pair with the owners gun. Don't need to travel with a safe.

I have been convinced that a smart trigger is a bad idea because they can fail. The battery can die and you don't know it etc etc. So I just don't think that's a good idea at all.

 

[shockaholic12]

Well, I'm trying to prevent the gun being used in the first place by requiring all gun owners to keep them locked up in safes.

My bottom line with the location device on a gun is that it completely neuters the entire reason the human being should be able to carry a gun which is to protect itself from an oppressive government and then secondarily for self-defense in the woods or city.

It's no big deal. We don't have to argue about it, but it would not support your position on a tracking device on a gun.

And if we had all guns required to be

We handed out guns so easily to protect ourselves that now the main thing we have to protect ourselves from is the guns.

America has proven it has absolutely no ability to control it's gun market which is so big it's a north america problem. I don't think it's beyond our capabilities to design a system where the government doesn't track you but instead has to publicly request that data when you've lost possession.

 

[terrapin]

How many times have car's GPS systems been hacked by stalkers or the government and weaponized against citizens or used to steal them?

We don't know that's the point.

But safeguards are put in place for exceptional circumstances and the safeguard against our government oppressing us is that we have guns that can be used to protect ourselves against that oppression.

Making every gun traceable is the same as taking every gun away from every human being.

 

[terrapin]

We handed out guns so easily to protect ourselves that now the main thing we have to protect ourselves from is the guns.

America has proven it has absolutely no ability to control it's gun market which is so big it's a north america problem. I don't think it's beyond our capabilities to design a system where the government doesn't track you but instead has to publicly request that data when you've lost possession.

Yes, guns are a problem in America and that's why we're all thinking deeply about how to solve the problem.

I think being held criminally liable if you didn't have your gun secured safely and it was used in a crime would make a very big difference and go a very long way....

We agree something needs to be done. We have different ideas about what is to be done and that's what we're discussing and I've thought about your positions and I don't think they're good ones for the reasons I've stated. and you havent addressed my positions.

and I think my positions are much better while protecting the anonymity of a human being while they have a gun on them, etc.

 

[Teppodama]

I’m saying don’t have the government track anything. Don’t put the system in their possession. Manufacturers can be responsible for that just like it’s the company tracking your car around unit the government can meet the criteria to demand that info. We can subsided the costs for the companies if needed

Tracking info getting to the government would only occur in situations like presence during a crime or no longer in your possession.

I’m all for pushing back on surveillance in most areas except this one because of the scope of the issue.

Do you truly believe that our current government doesn't either pressure companies for information they feel they require or just espionage the fuck out of the issue to gather whatever data they require when they require? I'm not a gambling man at all but I'd be willing to bet for every instance you may read about where the government asks for information from a company or individual and are denied there are probably a hundred where they got what they wanted or simply took it using secret courts and compliant judges to sign off on simply hacking the shit out of the company or individual to take what they wanted.

If you give a government the ability to hack you it will. If you give a government the ability to track you it will. If you give a government the ability to disarm you it will. If you give a government the ability to curtail or limit a freedom in the name of societal safety or the common good it will do so eventually. Governments are in the business of power and control of societies. They gather more of both by using what they have of each and reaching for more.

Now here's an interesting scenario for Lefties. You give the government full control over firearms. They either outlaw them for civilian usage except for the most specific of circumstances or outlaw them completely. Maybe they low jack every firearm so the government knows where they are at all times and who they belong do. A full on societal database...

Now, you get a full on boogie man like you claim Trump is as President. One who isn't going to ever give up power and who starts wielding control over society with an iron fist. Takes over control of the MSM and now they're state run news. All schools are now Federal schools. Who's gonna stop him? How are they going to stop him? If the Fascist police are on his side who's going to fight for you when you have no firearms to protect yourself? What if military leadership supports him? Who is going to rise up against them and how?

Firearms and access to them isn't always about being able to overpower and win. Its about providing enough of a deterrent that maybe one doesn't have to fight to being with but if one does have to then at least they have a chance, however slim. Its about taking ones own life and the lives of their loved ones into their own hands rather than hoping someone will come along and save them.

If you and your family are home and someone breaks in and has a weapon. Do you protect yourself or hope you can get to the phone quick enough to call 911 and then hope they get there in time to stop the introdure and hope that during that wait they don't kill or rape you and your family?

What about while you're out and about. Carjacking, mugging, simple idiots our wilding looking to fuck some shit up? Gonna let them beat you down, take your shit, rape you or whomever you're with? Kill you or your loved one? You going to wish you'd had a way to defend yourself or your loved one?

As long as you are around other people, especially in large groups such as cities, only an idiot says it can never happen to them or someone they love. That's not fear, that's the practical realization of living around other people in a society where crime will and does happen.

 

[Gutter Chris]

Are there pyschos taking stolen flatscreen TVs or drunk chicks in a mini-skirt and murdering a couple dozen kids and adults in public spaces lately?

Sounds absurd when you compare those circumstances to firearms doesn't it?

Doesn't matter.

It isn't unreasonable for a person depending on their living situation to have a firearm at the ready say in a nightstand drawer or maybe the closet or even under the bed....it is however absurd to punish people for having crimes committed against them.

Schools should have better security, we should have a strong national Healthcare system and anyone caught with a stolen gun should get an auto 50. Guns and the people that would do bad things with them start to come off the street real quick. You are done forever if you get caught with a gun you shouldn't have and I imagine a lot of people will stop having them on them within a generation. Now I know that doesn't cover your real lunatic spree shooter with the rifle. That guy isn't the bulk of the shootings though , that guy who hasn't done anything so he won't flag yet but is totally evil and dead inside is very hard to stop without going full on dictatorship. But this does cover the guy who does most mass shootings and this does a lot more to deal with neighborhoods that are super violent and crime infested. The kinda place where there is nothing legal about the conceal and carry going on. Maybe send a message that while we respect our rights and traditions we will assfuck you to death if you want to abuse them.

Crime stats. How do they work !

 

[Teppodama]

Yes, but none of that sounds prohibitive to my mind. Being able to tell whether the gun was in a safe or not, does not or is not the same capability as being able to track that gun anywhere it goes. So I think there's not really a dichotomy there.

And I do think that you should have to have your gun in a safe in a vehicle if you leave it. And the same goes with a swimming pool. Yeah, I know it's inconvenient but the fact is you should have that gun and a freaking safe because that's the exact kind of scenario where a kid gets a hold of it and kills somebody on accident.

a smart, safe, smart gun scenario is not a problem technologically at all, nor is it too complex to distinguish between that and the safe needing to be in a car or the safe needing to be in a portable safe when you're swimming or what have you. There is complexity here but I think it's the kind of complexity that could save lives and isn't really that hard on the user.

Basically Smart, safe smart gun is not the same as the government being able to trace that gun anywhere you go.

The biometric triggers are a bigger problem though because now I'm thinking that they could fail as another poster as mentioned.

Basically, there ought to be criminal liability if you're done as stolen and it can be proven that you didn't have it stored securely and I think that would get most people afraid enough to take better care of their guns.

Just an example which directly involves a swimming pool, which is that we used to go swimming at my cousin's house and they're really good people and her husband has a shotgun and we were all playing and messing around around the pool and my daughter was in the house so I went into check on her and she was playing in the bedroom and I looked in his closet which was wide open and there was a loaded Mossberg shotgun leaning against the wall.

That is criminal negligence and if something had happened which didn't even come close to happening I think he should be held liable for that.

Smart trigger locks that pair with the owners gun. Don't need to travel with a safe.

Any "smart" item is subject to failure and potential hacking. If you need a firearm for a defensive reason the possibility of failure of "smart" tech in your firearm is unacceptable. Anything "smart" can be hacked and any criminal serious about stealing will learn how to do so. If they can bypass vehicle security they'll learn how to bypass firearm security. If they can defeat lowjack tech on vehicles they'll learn how to defeat lowjack tech on firearms.

Firearms are not the problem. Societal understanding of firearms is. How we deal with their improper usage is. How they've been fetishized is. How entertainment and media in general portray them is. Firearms in society have been turned into a totem for power and respect and as a superior means of dealing with an issue where the application of greater force is the easy answer. There is little societal push for greater understanding of the tool, its proper application and reasons for its usage as well as when its usage is not warranted.

We used to have that to a better degree at one time as a society and somewhere along the way that was lost. When John Wick mows down a couple hundred dudes with firearms and knives and looks cool as shit doing it. Its hard to tell a kid that John was actually in the wrong, that it wasn't cool and shit doesn't always need to be handled that way. Its hard to tell a young one that sometimes its ok to get your ass beat, to have a simple fist fight, that you can survive bullying, loneliness, the chaos of puberty and that you don't have to push back with a bullet.

 

[shockaholic12]

We don't know that's the point.

But safeguards are put in place for exceptional circumstances and the safeguard against our government oppressing us is that we have guns that can be used to protect ourselves against that oppression.

Making every gun traceable is the same as taking every gun away from every human being.

I mean, it's not the remotely same. Because then the government would have to force all the civilian run companies selling/tracing the guns to all become complicit in some giant civil war against their own families/customers and then after that the government would then have to go physically get the guns. So different.

 

[shockaholic12]

Doesn't matter.

It isn't unreasonable for a person depending on their living situation to have a firearm at the ready say in a nightstand drawer or maybe the closet or even under the bed....it is however absurd to punish people for having crimes committed against them.

Schools should have better security, we should have a strong national Healthcare system and anyone caught with a stolen gun should get an auto 50. Guns and the people that would do bad things with them start to come off the street real quick. You are done forever if you get caught with a gun you shouldn't have and I imagine a lot of people will stop having them on them within a generation. Now I know that doesn't cover your real lunatic spree shooter with the rifle. That guy isn't the bulk of the shootings though , that guy who hasn't done anything so he won't flag yet but is totally evil and dead inside is very hard to stop without going full on dictatorship. But this does cover the guy who does most mass shootings and this does a lot more to deal with neighborhoods that are super violent and crime infested. The kinda place where there is nothing legal about the conceal and carry going on. Maybe send a message that while we respect our rights and traditions we will assfuck you to death if you want to abuse them.

Crime stats. How do they work !

It is unreasonable for them leave their firearms around unlocked when they aren't home. It's almost like possessing a gun should come with higher burden of responsibility than a flat screen tv.

The fucking secret service with heads up couldn't keep an incel from nearly taking out the president there's no security system that you are going to outfit every school with that will reliably keep mass shooters from racking up victims.

We incarcerate the most people already. Jail sentences after the crimes are committed aren't addressing much at all.

 

[terrapin]

I’m saying don’t have the government track anything. Don’t put the system in their possession. Manufacturers can be responsible for that just like it’s the company tracking your car around unit the government can meet the criteria to demand that info. We can subsided the costs for the companies if needed

Tracking info getting to the government would only occur in situations like presence during a crime or no longer in your possession.

I’m all for pushing back on surveillance in most areas except this one because of the scope of the issue.

hard no to massive corporations tracking human beings that way too. we can agree to disagree here.

I support background checks, waiting periods for purchases, universal registration for all gun sales/gifts, smart safe/gun storage and criminal charges for any person who fails to secure a gun and a crime is committed. I even support government buy back programs to siphon off gun ownership.

I think if we start here we will have gone a LONG way towards solving the issue without infringing on privacy rights.

 

[terrapin]

I mean, it's not the remotely same. Because then the government would have to force all the civilian run companies selling/tracing the guns to all become complicit in some giant civil war against their own families/customers and then after that the government would then have to go physically get the guns. So different.

that is the VERY scenario that citizens owning guns is meant to safeguard against. and anyone pretending that is not a realistic issue is whistling in the dark.

 

[terrapin]

It is unreasonable for them leave their firearms around unlocked when they aren't home. It's almost like possessing a gun should come with higher burden of responsibility than a flat screen tv.

The fucking secret service with heads up couldn't keep an incel from nearly taking out the president there's no security system that you are going to outfit every school with that will reliably keep mass shooters from racking up victims.

We incarcerate the most people already. Jail sentences after the crimes are committed aren't addressing much at all.

agree with this minus the jail talk but only because we REALLY need to transition from a punitive prison system to a rehabilitative one. another of the REAL solutions that people wont talk about that have NOTHING to do with guns at all. and only a small part at that.

 

[terrapin]

Any "smart" item is subject to failure and potential hacking. If you need a firearm for a defensive reason the possibility of failure of "smart" tech in your firearm is unacceptable. Anything "smart" can be hacked and any criminal serious about stealing will learn how to do so. If they can bypass vehicle security they'll learn how to bypass firearm security. If they can defeat lowjack tech on vehicles they'll learn how to defeat lowjack tech on firearms.

Firearms are not the problem. Societal understanding of firearms is. How we deal with their improper usage is. How they've been fetishized is. How entertainment and media in general portray them is. Firearms in society have been turned into a totem for power and respect and as a superior means of dealing with an issue where the application of greater force is the easy answer. There is little societal push for greater understanding of the tool, its proper application and reasons for its usage as well as when its usage is not warranted.

We used to have that to a better degree at one time as a society and somewhere along the way that was lost. When John Wick mows down a couple hundred dudes with firearms and knives and looks cool as shit doing it. Its hard to tell a kid that John was actually in the wrong, that it wasn't cool and shit doesn't always need to be handled that way. Its hard to tell a young one that sometimes its ok to get your ass beat, to have a simple fist fight, that you can survive bullying, loneliness, the chaos of puberty and that you don't have to push back with a bullet.

I like this post a lot actually although it should NOT be either or. we should implement a ton of gun regulations/measures. but I think the societal change that needs to happen is the MUCH bigger solution. but I don't think its very much about gun culture at all.

its about broken dysfunctional families that pass on genratonal suffering that leads to all kinds of bad outcomes including violence. I don't have stats but its pretty easy to predict the TYPE of person and background that is going to go off and shoot people.

it is amazing to me how much people know about things that are nearly completely unimportant like sports stats, trivia, hobbies etc and how absolutely in the dark we are as a society about how to heal psychological and emotional suffering and find a life of meaning and purpose and create a society of meaning and purpose. it is here that the real transformation that society needs is actually found and it will heal a lot more than just gun violence.

 

[terrapin]

Do you truly believe that our current government doesn't either pressure companies for information they feel they require or just espionage the fuck out of the issue to gather whatever data they require when they require? I'm not a gambling man at all but I'd be willing to bet for every instance you may read about where the government asks for information from a company or individual and are denied there are probably a hundred where they got what they wanted or simply took it using secret courts and compliant judges to sign off on simply hacking the shit out of the company or individual to take what they wanted.

If you give a government the ability to hack you it will. If you give a government the ability to track you it will. If you give a government the ability to disarm you it will. If you give a government the ability to curtail or limit a freedom in the name of societal safety or the common good it will do so eventually. Governments are in the business of power and control of societies. They gather more of both by using what they have of each and reaching for more.

Now here's an interesting scenario for Lefties. You give the government full control over firearms. They either outlaw them for civilian usage except for the most specific of circumstances or outlaw them completely. Maybe they low jack every firearm so the government knows where they are at all times and who they belong do. A full on societal database...

Now, you get a full on boogie man like you claim Trump is as President. One who isn't going to ever give up power and who starts wielding control over society with an iron fist. Takes over control of the MSM and now they're state run news. All schools are now Federal schools. Who's gonna stop him? How are they going to stop him? If the Fascist police are on his side who's going to fight for you when you have no firearms to protect yourself? What if military leadership supports him? Who is going to rise up against them and how?

Firearms and access to them isn't always about being able to overpower and win. Its about providing enough of a deterrent that maybe one doesn't have to fight to being with but if one does have to then at least they have a chance, however slim. Its about taking ones own life and the lives of their loved ones into their own hands rather than hoping someone will come along and save them.

If you and your family are home and someone breaks in and has a weapon. Do you protect yourself or hope you can get to the phone quick enough to call 911 and then hope they get there in time to stop the introdure and hope that during that wait they don't kill or rape you and your family?

What about while you're out and about. Carjacking, mugging, simple idiots our wilding looking to fuck some shit up? Gonna let them beat you down, take your shit, rape you or whomever you're with? Kill you or your loved one? You going to wish you'd had a way to defend yourself or your loved one?

As long as you are around other people, especially in large groups such as cities, only an idiot says it can never happen to them or someone they love. That's not fear, that's the practical realization of living around other people in a society where crime will and does happen.

I'm FAR left like Bernie was but I am 100% on board with nearly all of this. Bernie was not so bad on the gun issue either btw. no way the gov gets that kind of power.... especially after trump tacitly allowed a shitty half hearted coup to take place.... the way tensions have built in this country and the way we are divided is MORE of a reason safeguard against government control than ever.