Greatest boxer ever?

[Willy Lump Lump]

i'm only 19. i've watched his fights on ESPN Classics, i've seens tapes of his fights. I've seen him fight, he is the only HW boxing champ to retire undefeated. He won 44 of 49 fights by Knock Out, thats a 88% knockout rate.

The guy was good, i think he beats any HW fighter from any era in their primes. I think he beats Tyson, Ali, Frazier, Liston, Louis, Foreman, ect...ect...ect..

no way. of the names you mentioned the only one he could beat is tyson, maybe louis.

he wasnt a very big guy, imagine a Lennox or Klitschko in the ring with him.

 

[Jaymo_ie]

ALI, Haggler, Marciano, Robinson, DLH, Mayweather......all legends.

It difficult to choose and say for sure, my fav of all time is Tyson based on the fact I'm not old enough to comment in any great detail on the others, but Tyson's fight always were electric and surrounded with such fury and exitment.

 

[Mr.pain]

MySpace Video Sugar ray Robinson by Luke Finch aka kuma-son by Luke

 

[TKDhasBin]

Seeing that he drew a selective color line during his reign , can't say I would agree .

Yeah.....Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette and McVey would'nt agree either.

 

[iohc86]

lol, steady on there. Rocky would be a super middle weight today so how can you feasibly say he'd beat that crop.

Rocky Marciano weighed 187 by choice. Heavyweights back then were more cut, leaner and faster. Marciano cut his weight in order to maintain his speed and hi work rate. Which is why Marciano never gassed and was able to pummel fighters with sledgehammer blows round after round without any sign of fatigue.

Read up on Rockys diet. He would chew on steaks just for the juices then spit the rest out. Rocky had a monstrous appetite yet restricted himself to maintain his weight. He even ballooned to over 250 lbs after retirement. If Rocky were to fight in todays division, he would no doubt weigh over 200. And I personally believe size is overrated. Prime Ali(the one who beat Liston in one round) weighed 205 on fight night. This Ali would have beaten everyone in the current heavyweight division. Take a look at Evander Holyfield. He took a prime Riddick Bowe to a close decision at 205 lbs. Prime Riddick Bow was a giant of a man with incredible skills. He would have given Lewis on a good night fits. Yet he was unable to knock out Holyfield and ended up edging a close decision. Rocky would do well in todays division. Him and Holyfield are similar in some aspects. The difference was that Rocky hit far harder, had a much stronger chin and an infinite gas tank. While Holyfield had better technical skills.

I can see a 205 pound Marciano out working todays fat heavyweights to the point of exhaustion and eventually knocking them out. Although I do agree with you on Marciano not being the GOAT. That title belongs to Ali.

 

[francis_kreuer]

manny only 30 years old

 

[prontostar]

Well that didn't take very long.

if manny wins the ww title he'd be pretty close.

 

[Nathan LaMontagne]

Sugar Ray Robinson

 

[byggarn]

Sugar Ray Robinson no question about that.

 

[webeballin]

joe louis - although highly regarded look at who his greatest victory was against.max Schmeling this boxer and this fight is more famous for the whole nazi issue's surrounding it,it is a great historilcal fight but Schmeling was a good boxer at best

marciano - fought in one of the weakest eras of heavyweight,his most impressive victories were over joe walccott and joe louis and maybe archie moore,all of whom were right at the end of their careers and way past their prime,


sugar ray robinson - some of the purists get caught way too up in the hype of this guy,sure he was influential,but apart from jack lamotta who did he fight that was an all time great


muhammad ali - fought in the greatest era of heavyweight boxing,and one of the most competitive divisions of any era and ruled,he ruled in the 1960's lost three years of his boxing career right when he was in his prime,fought the greatest heavyweights ever and won

no other boxer has a more impressive reseme on their record

frazier 2x
norton 2x
liston 2x
patterson 2x
liston 2x
cooper 2x
chavalo 2x
quarry 2x
Oscar Bonavena(the only time anybody has ever stopped Bonavena)
ellis
foreman(only time anybody has ever stopped foreman,foreman was undefeated at the time)
joe bugner
ron lyle
bob foster
earnier shavers
earnier terrell
karl midenbrager


and so forth

the likes of louis and marciano would dream to have those names on their records but they dont

their is alot of hype surrounding ali,created by himself but that motherfucker has more than lived up to it than any boxer in history

never ducked anybody,while everbody was ducking sonny liston he stepped up,wasnt given a hope in hell,he said he would stop liston and he did

when foreman was destroying everybody he stepped up and and again 10 years later while many argue that ali wasnt even in his prime,nobody have him a chance in hell,said he was gonna stop foreman and he did remeining the only man to do so

fought guys who were a nightmare style up for him(norton and frazier)and still came out on top,not many guys come out on top of such style ups,

and when he would lose a fight he always tracked down that person beat them and later on gave them a rematch that is a true champion

if he was in any condition he would have given spinks a rematch and would have sought out rematches with holmes and berbick


some guy said ali didnt have heart(wtf) norton broke his jaw in the second round and he fought and still fought for another 30 minutesm,always fought dangerous guys who everybody was scared of,if Ali didnt have heart then why did he refuse to quit against larry holmes when he was getting seriously hurt

ali is one of the bravest boxers to ever step foot in a ring


so there you go,i could go on forever but there isnt much point,the few paragraphs proves why ali is the greatest(lol like the position as number one heavyweight was ever in dispute :icon_chee)

ali talked a good fight and he could fight a good fight,marciano and louis no offense but are not even in the same league as ali

the second greatest heavyweight and arguably the most underrated also has to be george foreman he would have destroyed both marciano and louis

 

[MeBig]

I am a big Marchiano fan, probably my favorite heavyweight, but to say he could beat any HW in their prime is retarded (he did beat Louis, but he was 137 years old when they fought, Frank Sinatra told me). He was champ when people were smaller and boxing was different. And heavyweight wasn't very stacked then either, his biggest win is against an old Joe Walcott and most of his big name fights were past their primes.

As for best ever, it has to be Ray Robinson or Henry Armstrong. Henry Armstrong once almost held half of the world championships at the same time (3/8) and i think he drew or lost a close fight to win his 4th.

Enjoy...

YouTube - Joe Louis was 137 yrs old

 

[MeBig]

sugar ray robinson - some of the purists get caught way too up in the hype of this guy,sure he was influential,but apart from jack lamotta who did he fight that was an all time great

What, are you stupid? Fullmer, Basilio, Graziano, Turpin, Gavilan, Henry Armstrong,

 

[MeBig]

^ All multiple times, btw.

 

[webeballin]

What, are you stupid? Fullmer, Basilio, Graziano, Turpin, Gavilan, Henry Armstrong,

meh

 

[MeBig]

meh

you done now?

 

[smitri6]

I'd say Ali. My reasoning is this: How many other boxers reigned in a time where boxing was so popular and there were so many excellent fighters? I think you would be hard pressed to find any other era with so many stars and great boxers, and find someone who made such a name for themselves. He was both a great boxer and a great spokesman. He made his name a legend when there were potential legends all around him. He mastered everything about the sport, even if he stayed a few years too long in the end.

 

[bradlee180]

joe louis - although highly regarded look at who his greatest victory was against.max Schmeling this boxer and this fight is more famous for the whole nazi issue's surrounding it,it is a great historilcal fight but Schmeling was a good boxer at best

marciano - fought in one of the weakest eras of heavyweight,his most impressive victories were over joe walccott and joe louis and maybe archie moore,all of whom were right at the end of their careers and way past their prime,


sugar ray robinson - some of the purists get caught way too up in the hype of this guy,sure he was influential,but apart from jack lamotta who did he fight that was an all time great


muhammad ali - fought in the greatest era of heavyweight boxing,and one of the most competitive divisions of any era and ruled,he ruled in the 1960's lost three years of his boxing career right when he was in his prime,fought the greatest heavyweights ever and won

no other boxer has a more impressive reseme on their record

frazier 2x
norton 2x
liston 2x
patterson 2x
liston 2x
cooper 2x
chavalo 2x
quarry 2x
Oscar Bonavena(the only time anybody has ever stopped Bonavena)
ellis
foreman(only time anybody has ever stopped foreman,foreman was undefeated at the time)
joe bugner
ron lyle
bob foster
earnier shavers
earnier terrell
karl midenbrager


and so forth

the likes of louis and marciano would dream to have those names on their records but they dont

their is alot of hype surrounding ali,created by himself but that motherfucker has more than lived up to it than any boxer in history

never ducked anybody,while everbody was ducking sonny liston he stepped up,wasnt given a hope in hell,he said he would stop liston and he did

when foreman was destroying everybody he stepped up and and again 10 years later while many argue that ali wasnt even in his prime,nobody have him a chance in hell,said he was gonna stop foreman and he did remeining the only man to do so

fought guys who were a nightmare style up for him(norton and frazier)and still came out on top,not many guys come out on top of such style ups,

and when he would lose a fight he always tracked down that person beat them and later on gave them a rematch that is a true champion

if he was in any condition he would have given spinks a rematch and would have sought out rematches with holmes and berbick


some guy said ali didnt have heart(wtf) norton broke his jaw in the second round and he fought and still fought for another 30 minutesm,always fought dangerous guys who everybody was scared of,if Ali didnt have heart then why did he refuse to quit against larry holmes when he was getting seriously hurt

ali is one of the bravest boxers to ever step foot in a ring


so there you go,i could go on forever but there isnt much point,the few paragraphs proves why ali is the greatest(lol like the position as number one heavyweight was ever in dispute :icon_chee)

ali talked a good fight and he could fight a good fight,marciano and louis no offense but are not even in the same league as ali

the second greatest heavyweight and arguably the most underrated also has to be george foreman he would have destroyed both marciano and louis

Muhammad Ali is absolutely one of the greatest of All-Time.

However, a few details about the PRIME Ali that a few of you may not be aware of.
Don't want to get into too much detail about the faded Ali in the mid to late 70's who benefited from gift-decisions and ring-robberies.


In 1963, 185 lb Henry Cooper damn near knocked out Ali with a single left hook right near the end of the rd.
If Angie didn't split Ali's glove to buy time, Cooper may've got him.

Also in 1963, 188 lb Doug Jones beat Ali but was robbed in the decision. Ali was booed out of Madison Square Garden.

Ali fought 3 fights in 1963. The other fight was against a journeyman named Charley Powell.
Somehow these last 2 questionable wins over Cooper and Doug Jones earned Ali a shot at Sonny Liston in early '64.

191 lb Sonny Banks dropped Ali in 1962 with a single left hook.

George Chuvalo tore Ali's body apart for 15 rds in 1966, and though George didn't win the fight, he ought to have been awarded a few more rds for the relentless body attack.
It wasn't so one-sided as people like to think.

People also forget: Ali basically quit in his first title challenge of Sonny Liston in 1964 citing Liston cheating by robbing linament into his eyes.
Ali wanted to cut the gloves off to prove dirty things were afoot, and only Angelo Dundee kept Ali in that fight.

That's all the prime Ali of the 60's.

I believe Ali was one of the great ones, but I don't think he was absolute "The Greatest."

Too many stylistic flaws which he overcame with speed and athleticism.

Ali in the 70's? Shenanigans, a few clear losses, some ring-robberies and some gift decisions.

Ali's many wins still outshine the shortcomings especially in beating two murderous punchers who were deemed unbeatable in Sonny Liston and George Foreman.

Muhammad Ali fought 'em all.
Tremendous toughness and Heart displayed by Ali in the 70's which Ali often had to rely on after the speed of his youth was gone.


^ Not meant at all as a hit-piece, webeballin (nice username by the way), but these shortcomings must be considered when assessing a fighter.

 

[webeballin]

1/

gift decisions,ROBBERIES????????????? jesus christ anytime somebody manages to trouble ali it is a gift decision,close fights are not gift decisions

a gift decision is holyfeld gaining a draw from the lewis fight,the fight wasnt even close

name some examples of the so called gift decisions and i will debunk them

much more boxers have benefited from gift decisions that ali ever did




2/

ok i am sick and tired of explaining this ok it has been proven the myth has been debunked for one he didn't knock him out he was up before the end of the round

it has been proven that while ali did have a tear in his glove he recieved 5 extra seconds max not the claimed 5 minutes this is a myth and it is a lie

it's only the british who tried to claim this garbage to save face that ole "enry" got his face pounded twice

by the way ali gave cooper a rematch in london for the title and guess what ali destroyed him again please dont bring up this ali got extra time garbage because it's false and has already been debunked


3/


ali was booed out because they didnt like his style and jones was known as a tenacious,agressive fighter which is the stereotypical fighter the north east like AND HE WAS FROM NEW YORK CITY!

that fight consisted of ali beating him up but not hurting jones and ali's supposed arrogance after the fight didnt endear him to the new york crowd of course they were going to boo ali he wasnt at the time the style of fighter they likes jones was not robbed he won decisevely


4/



ali recieved a title shot because there was nobody else did you not read my post.EVERYBODY WAS DUCKING LISTON henry cooper was too afraid to fight sonny liston and by this time ali was 19-0


sonny banks dropped ali and youre point is?? ali also stopped sonny banks

no matter how many rounds you gave chuvalo he still would have lost,neither fight was competitive all chavalo proved was that he was a tough bastard who could take a hell of a beating of which he recieved from the likes of ali,foreman and frazier

and how so did ali quit? all i saw was angelo dundee rinse his eyes and tell him to keep away from liston which he do so for the fifth round until his eyes cleared up in the sixth of which he resumed control of the fight

again i dont see what youre point is here are you insinuating that ali made up that liston had illegal substances on his gloves? quite clearly he was bothered by his eye sight and he dominated the first four rounds why would he cry wolf for?



5/



again name me some of these so called clear losses which would insinuate that they were so clear that fight was never even close

you cant blame ali for his loss of speed in the 1970's he had three years of his prime taken away from him

to out box ali in the 70's wasnt impossible,to outfight him damn near was though ali in the 70's always started off strong slowed down in the middle rounds and then came back very strong in the latter rounds

of which he did against norton,shavers,spinks,lyle and frazier


and since when was relying on speed and athleticism a bad thing,thats all roy jones jr ever relied on,of course the difference between ali and RJJ is that when ali lost his speed he looked for new strategies and new ways of fighting he found the chin he thought he never had,he found a punch which he discovered was actually much stronger than those claimed before

ali adopted a new gameplan something roy jones jr never did and why roy jones jr is failing


of course ali isnt the most techincal boxer but being the most technical boxer doesnt mean the best pro boxer

ali has been in many wars put on some of the greatest displays of boxing artitstry beaten the odds many times,beat some of the greats

sure it may have cost him his health but it didnt cost his legacy


some fighters live off fame ALI lived up to it

 

[bradlee180]

Well, we're talking PRIME here which is why I said I'd rather not list the shortcomings in the mid and late 70's (which I could if I wanted to turn it into a hit-piece on Ali as you seem to want to do.)

I think we ought to stick to discussing the man in his PRIME, and I listed the shortcomings during the PRIME years as you don't seem to be aware of them. The highs yes, but the lows must be weighed too.


Last time I do you a favour.

 

[Sharkey]

ok i am sick and tired of explaining this ok it has been proven the myth has been debunked for one he didn't knock him out he was up before the end of the round

it has been proven that while ali did have a tear in his glove he recieved 5 extra seconds max not the claimed 5 minutes this is a myth and it is a lie

it's only the british who tried to claim this garbage to save face that ole "enry" got his face pounded twice

by the way ali gave cooper a rematch in london for the title and guess what ali destroyed him again please dont bring up this ali got extra time garbage because it's false and has already been debunked.

Only the British who claimed that?

"I wanted time for Cassius to get himself together! I don't know how many minutes I gained, and I admit it was gamemanship, but it was advantageous to both fighters.", "The very skillful Danny Holland, Cooper's cut man, had those extra minutes to work on the bad cut over Henry's left eye.", "It didn't work out for Henry. The fifth round started minutes late with his cut still seeping blood."

- a few quotes from Angelo Dundee in his bio 'I Only Talk Winning' (pages 189 & 190)


"It took nearly a minute to make the replacement. Many times I've been asked if I needed the extra minute it took.", "I believe a regular minute would have been enough to clear my head, but, of course, the extra minute gave me new vigor."

- Ali on page 122 of his bio 'My Own Story'


Apparently not 'only the British'.

I've seen the same video(s) you've seen in regards to only the few extra seconds you allude to, but in this day and age when it's so easy to edit such videos, I don't know if I'm going to believe what I was seeing considering all the parties involved (in 'Facing Ali', Cooper thought there was an extra minute and a half) thought at least an extra minute was added to Ali'sd rest period.

P.S. Ali got some close decisions that may have gone the other way in my eyes (Jones, Frazier II, Norton II, Shavers), but for my money, there's no way he won the fight with Jimmy Young or the third fight with Ken Norton, and I would call those gift decision in Ali's favour.