Social Gender ideology is dying, common sense prevailing

[PainIsLIfe]

“Forcing the world to deny reality”. Wow.
You don’t have to face reality. But if you’re not going to… you can also mind. your. own. fuckin. business.

You mean the reality that Sara McBride is a guy with a punishment? Cause that's reality.

And you can mind your own business when people that know men have a penis call Sara Mr or Congressman.

You see how simple that is?

 

[Ares Black]

Dude got a penis; I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Which dude?

 

[joy2day]

Nowhere in your linked metastudy did they say they took out "bad studies."

In fact YOUR LINK, specifically says they included ALL the studies. AND they specifically said the majority of the studies were poor to fair.

"This tool ranks each article as “good,” “fair,” or “poor,” and with this, we categorized each article into “low risk,” “moderate risk,” or “high risk” of bias, respectively."

"Quality Assessment​

Based on the NIH quality assessment tool, the majority of article ranged between “poor” and “fair” categories.<a href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8099405/#R24">24</a> (See Supplemental Digital Content 2, which displays the score of each reviewed study. http://links.lww.com/PRSGO/B599.)"




This is only talking specifically about mastectomies. That is not relevant because we have to include hormones and genital surgery.




This is for adults. Irrelevant.



AGAIN, the problem with most of these studies is that the FOLLOW UP is TOO SHORT and they're talking about adults.

We have to isolate any "regret studies" to when they TRANS KIDS and take out any adult studies.

In short, we need LONG TERM STUDIES on when they trans kids. No one has a problem with adults transitioning. They're adults, they can do whatever they want.



No one has a problem with adults transitioning.

Low Regret rates for adults is completely irrelevant to the debate we're having in society - which is about KIDS doing this shit.



1. It doesn't matter if it's rare or not. It's still wrong. And if it is so rare, why do you care if it's banned?

2. We're not only talking about surgery. We're also talking about giving cross sex hormones which obviously leads to a whole bunch of physical changes such as infertility, loss of sexual function and all the other permanent changes.



Irrelevant. Because again we're not only talking about surgery. We're talking about hormones and surgeries. The vast majority of the time, they go hand in hand.

Barely any JUST do surgery and not take hormones.



You just said they're not transing kids in real life and in the next sentence defend transing kids as life saving.

OK I don't have time to address all of this- but what I will say is you are all over the place talking about all kinds of different things. Let's go bit by bit.

1) So we have established that adults doing this is not an issue, right? Their choice. We disagree on the evidence regarding satisfaction level for adults, but I'm sure you aren't going to try to tell me there is proof that the level of medical desistence is beyond what is acceptable; this is an adult choice so they are assuming the risk. No use spending more time on that.

2) The next thing is kids and surgery. That is basically a nonissue given it is only few per year out of tens of millions. Even if that isn't right, there are so many worse problems and so many more kids are killed other ways, it's not worth this debate.

3) As far as puberty blockers and hormones, A study by going back and looking through insurance has found that between like 2017 and 2022 there were a total of about 1000 kids on puberty blockers and about 2000 kids that were actually on hormones. That's with 300,000 trans kids in the United States so that's a very small proportion of even trans kids. The puberty blockers just put puberty on pause they don't actually change anything permanently; it is a to give them time to make the decision.

4) So if you look at a fraction of a percentage point of kids, it is highly conceivable that they have such extreme cases of gender dysphoria that something extreme would be needed so the situation won't lead to serious psychological/developmental damage, where mental health would be at high risk for an extended time and suicide actually would be a worry (and basically every other mental health problem); you are talking kids that are wildly out of the norm. If the number has jumped drastically over the last few years of kids getting this since that study, I might agree that it is being done too often and perhaps there wasn't thorough clinical evaluation going on, which would be ethically troubling. I am not convinced that is the case though.

5) What happened in the UK was that there was a massive swell in kids getting it, and some of the studies specifically on the safety and efficacy of puberty blockers just have not given us enough evidence to continue at that rate (It didn't show they were unsafe, there just wasn't enough good testing). But the UK did NOT stop it because like I'm trying to tell you, there are severe cases; what they did was make it only available in one clinic so they could watch really closely to make sure there was proper evaluation when they did it.

Puberty blockers have been in use for a long time by the way- they also sometimes given them to kids to avoid early puberty because that can be psychologically damaging. Did you know that? Gender affirming care has been around for a long time having nothing to do with trans. Were you mad about it then? If you are worried about the safety, it was just as unsafe to give it for that reason.

The truth is, regardless of where any kind of true morality sits on this issue, you and others have been suckered by the right into blowing this WAY out of proportion just given the sheer numbers involved. Did you know there are 2 million suicide attempts by kids every year in the US, and several thousand succeed? How much time have you spent typing about the cruelty of allowing kid's mental health to get this bad in forums? How upset have you gotten about in comparison to all of this fire and brimstone over trans people? There are far greater injustices going on that have far greater consequences, and I am talking specifically to kids in the US. It was a good way to get people inflamed about something that really puts people into disproportionate outrage, which I will admit was a genius con move by the Reps.

What I think about it is that kids shouldn't get surgery under 18, and any permanent hormones therapy should be extremely rare and only in a situation where everything else has been tried, there has been ample clinical evaluation, and you are basically out of other options. I get that you think it's simpler than that- that it should never happen, but I would urge you to consider that it is more complicated than that.

 

[Ares Black]

You mean the reality that Sara McBride is a guy with a punishment? Cause that's reality.

Have you seen it?

And you can mind your own business when people that know men have a penis call Sara Mr or Congressman.

You how simple that is?

Not as simple as you are

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Which dude?

Congressman Sara McBride

 

[Ares Black]

Congressman Sara McBride

Oh, have you seen her penis?

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Have you seen it?

Not as simple as you are

Maybe I have; are you jelly?

Simple perhaps, but certainly not stupid enough to call a man a woman.

 

[EndlessCritic]

I see you have decided to annul our tacit agreement to not talk about politics to maintain a cordial relationship in the Heavies.

Fair enough.

It's almost like there is physical evidence of cancer, but not if gender dysphoria. Hmm. Weird.

That's because you aren't nearly as smart as you think you are.

It wouldn't be massively teen suicides because it's such a tiny segment of the population, genius. It would just be sad kids killing themselves for no apparent reason.

And that really was a deeply stupid question.

You are not a smart man, despite your pretensions.

Is it your claim that there are no descriptions of people prior to the 19th century that match today what we would call Asperger's?

Of course there are. Your suggestion that you need "physical evidence" to describe a phenomenon is nonsense.

Of course I'm not smart. I'm in a skyscraper arguing on a martial arts forum.

 

[Ares Black]

Maybe I have; are you jelly?

Simple perhaps, but certainly not stupid enough to call a man a woman.

She's a trans woman.

It's not my fault (or hers) that you don't actually understand what that means.

 

[Ares Black]

Is it your claim that there are no descriptions of people prior to the 19th century that match today what we would call Asperger's?

Of course there are. Your suggestion that you need "physical evidence" to describe a phenomenon is nonsense.

Of course I'm not smart. I'm in a skyscraper arguing on a martial arts forum.

Lol we're done here. You are not a serious person.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Oh, have you seen her penis?

Well hers don't have a penis, but you're probably fantasizing about his right now.

It's such a strange hill to die on. You know that he's a man and yet you insist that everyone pretend that he's a woman.

 

[Koro_11]

OK I don't have time to address all of this- but what I will say is you are all over the place talking about all kinds of different things. Let's go bit by bit.

1) So we have established that adults doing this is not an issue, right? Their choice. We disagree on the evidence regarding satisfaction level for adults, but I'm sure you aren't going to try to tell me there is proof that the level of medical desistence is beyond what is acceptable; this is an adult choice so they are assuming the risk. No use spending more time on that.

2) The next thing is kids and surgery. That is basically a nonissue given it is only few per year out of tens of millions. Even if that isn't right, there are so many worse problems and so many more kids are killed other ways, it's not worth this debate.

3) As far as puberty blockers and hormones, A study by going back and looking through insurance has found that between like 2017 and 2022 there were a total of about 1000 kids on puberty blockers and about 2000 kids that were actually on hormones. That's with 300,000 trans kids in the United States so that's a very small proportion of even trans kids. The puberty blockers just put puberty on pause they don't actually change anything permanently; it is a to give them time to make the decision.

4) So if you look at a fraction of a percentage point of kids, it is highly conceivable that they have such extreme cases of gender dysphoria that something extreme would be needed so the situation won't lead to serious psychological/developmental damage, where mental health would be at high risk for an extended time and suicide actually would be a worry (and basically every other mental health problem); you are talking kids that are wildly out of the norm. If the number has jumped drastically over the last few years of kids getting this since that study, I might agree that it is being done too often and perhaps there wasn't thorough clinical evaluation going on, which would be ethically troubling. I am not convinced that is the case though.

5) What happened in the UK was that there was a massive swell in kids getting it, and some of the studies specifically on the safety and efficacy of puberty blockers just have not given us enough evidence to continue at that rate (It didn't show they were unsafe, there just wasn't enough good testing). But the UK did NOT stop it because like I'm trying to tell you, there are severe cases; what they did was make it only available in one clinic so they could watch really closely to make sure there was proper evaluation when they did it.

Puberty blockers have been in use for a long time by the way- they also sometimes given them to kids to avoid early puberty because that can be psychologically damaging. Did you know that? Gender affirming care has been around for a long time having nothing to do with trans. Were you mad about it then? If you are worried about the safety, it was just as unsafe to give it for that reason.

The truth is, regardless of where any kind of true morality sits on this issue, you and others have been suckered by the right into blowing this WAY out of proportion just given the sheer numbers involved. Did you know there are 2 million suicide attempts by kids every year in the US, and several thousand succeed? How much time have you spent typing about the cruelty of allowing kid's mental health to get this bad in forums? How upset have you gotten about in comparison to all of this fire and brimstone over trans people? There are far greater injustices going on that have far greater consequences, and I am talking specifically to kids in the US. It was a good way to get people inflamed about something that really puts people into disproportionate outrage, which I will admit was a genius con move by the Reps.

What I think about it is that kids shouldn't get surgery under 18, and any permanent hormones therapy should be extremely rare and only in a situation where everything else has been tried, there has been ample clinical evaluation, and you are basically out of other options. I get that you think it's simpler than that- that it should never happen, but I would urge you to consider that it is more complicated than that.

 

[Ares Black]

Well hers don't have a penis, but you're probably fantasizing about his right now.

It's true that the vast majority of women do not have a penis

It's such a strange hill to die on. You know that he's a man

Except she clearly isn't

and yet you insist that everyone pretend that he's a woman.

A trans woman. It's a pretty important distinction TBH.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Lol we're done here. You are not a serious person.

I am very serious about the fact that one of the biggest risk factors of suicide is social contagion.

I am very serious about the likelihood that telling people that gender dysphoria causes suicide is likely to increase the likelihood of people with gender dysphoria committing suicide.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

She's a trans woman.

It's not my fault (or hers) that you don't actually understand what that means.

There's that word trans. It has a meaning and implies that the person using the word is talking about something other than a woman.

Latin trans-, tra- across, beyond, through, so as to change, from trans across, beyond —

 

[Ares Black]

I am very serious about the fact that one of the biggest risk factors of suicide is social contagion.

I am very serious about the likelihood that telling people that gender dysphoria causes suicide is likely to increase the likelihood of people with gender dysphoria committing suicide.

That's because you are not a serious person.

Unserious people are very serious about a lot of things.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

It's true that the vast majority of women do not have a penis

Except she clearly isn't

A trans woman. It's a pretty important distinction TBH.

Describe the difference between a woman and a man and then the difference between a woman and "trans-woman"

 

[Ares Black]

There's that word trans. It has a meaning and implies that the person using the word is talking about something other than a woman.

Latin trans-, tra- across, beyond, through, so as to change, from trans across, beyond —

Almost

In this context it's just an abbreviated form of transgender.

Transgender means that someone's gender does not match their biological sex.

Therefore, a transgender woman is a person whose gender is female but their biological sex is male.

Like congresswoman McBride, and millions of other people.

 

[joy2day]

Your post didn't work.

 

[Ares Black]

Your post didn't work.

I feel like we probably aren't missing much