Social Gender ideology is dying, common sense prevailing

Crazy Source said:
I'm a swinging dick, and I have to apologize for my actions steadily.
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I did not know who you were before these exchanges. I think little of you frankly. you seem to be here to play games and cast aspersions but you are not here for honest discussion.

take the last word of course but respectfully I would appreciate if you did not tag me or respond to me after that.
 
Hog-train said:
No one has a problem with adults transitioning.
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Again, that is clearly not true
Hog-train said:
You just said they're not transing kids in real life and in the next sentence defend transing kids as life saving.

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Because "transing" kids is not a real word. It can mean whatever you want it to mean and it certainly implies doing something nefarious to someone.

There may be cases of mentally ill mothers pressuring their child into transitioning and convincing a doctor that gender affirming care is necessary. If so, that parent is responsible for messing up their child's life. Hopefully the gender affirming care was only social transitioning before the child realized they weren't actually trans.

But many trans people know they are trans from an early age and eventually their parents accept it as the truth. There are many examples of conservative parents resisting for years until they finally realized how badly they were hurting their child.

Gender affirming surgery is vanishingly rare in minors, and you could certainly make a case that it should be strictly regulated or even banned.

But social transition and changing pronouns is the extent of gender affirming care for kids. Once they hit puberty medical intervention might be necessary to help them reach adulthood.

Puberty is horrible for most people, but for trans youth it is a literal waking nightmare. It makes life unbearable for many, and the suicide rate is astronomical. Puberty blockers can help, and it also makes their post-puberty transition process much easier and more effective.

So yes, gender affirming care is life-saving medical intervention.
 
terrapin said:
I did not know who you were before these exchanges. I think little of you frankly. you seem to be here to play games and cast aspersions but you are not here for honest discussion.

take the last word of course but respectfully I would appreciate if you did not tag me or respond to me after that.
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No worries. You are a bigoted asshole that hides behind religion. Do you think you are the first? You are as common as corn. Or maize.
 
Ares Black said:
Puberty is horrible for most people, but for trans youth it is a literal waking nightmare. It makes life unbearable for many, and the suicide rate is astronomical.
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Can you link to any articles showing high suicide rates for teens due to anything resembling gender dysphoria in the 19th century or earlier?
 
EndlessCritic said:
Can you link to any articles showing high suicide rates for teens due to anything resembling gender dysphoria in the 19th century or earlier?
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You mean decades or centuries before it was even identified?

Seems unlikely.

And that's literally one of the dumbest questions I have ever seen on here.
 
terrapin said:
I also think a trans person could bully others through pronouns requirements with an edge to them.
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Don't tell the rest of the woke mob, but I think neopronouns are ridiculous and demanding people use them is patently absurd.

That said, they are incredibly rare and are mostly just amplified by transphobes. I have literally never met anyone who uses them.

I've actually only ever met one person who even requested they/them pronouns.
 
MMA IAN said:
If you cut off your dick and balls then realised you shouldnt have and were asked if you regret it.... would you admit it?
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Very good question that's why im also skeptic, but anyway if it helps them go for it.
Atleast have the balls to cut your own balls if your're so certain you're a woman.
 
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AmonTobin said:
Gender identity is more socially acceptable and scientifically backed than ever before. It’s here to stay. The world is full of people different than you, who are contributing to society and not hurting anyone.

So you can either live and let live or spend the rest of your life complaining like an annoying whiny bitch about people who don’t happen to conform to your personal standards.
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People that understand real science are here to stay as well. You can't force them to play along with everyone's delusions.
 
Ares Black said:
You mean decades or centuries before it was even identified?

Seems unlikely.

And that's literally one of the dumbest questions I have ever seen on here.
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Funny, there's a massive cross-cultural historical record of societies documenting symptoms resembling cancer, long before cancer was actually identified by any of those societies.

I reject your claim entirely that you have to know what a thing is in order to describe or document qualities of that thing.

The fact that they did not have the language of gender dysphoria would not have prevented people from documenting mass teen suicides.
 
PainIsLIfe said:
So refusing to play along is an obsession?

It seems the left is the ones obsessed with forcing the world to deny reality
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“Forcing the world to deny reality”. Wow.
You don’t have to face reality. But if you’re not going to… you can also mind. your. own. fuckin. business.
 
I see you have decided to annul our tacit agreement to not talk about politics to maintain a cordial relationship in the Heavies.

Fair enough.
EndlessCritic said:
Funny, there's a massive cross-cultural historical record of societies documenting symptoms resembling cancer, long before cancer was actually identified by any of those societies.
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It's almost like there is physical evidence of cancer, but not of gender dysphoria. Hmm. Weird.
EndlessCritic said:
I reject your claim entirely that you have to know what a thing is in order to describe or document qualities of that thing.
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That's because you aren't nearly as smart as you think you are.
EndlessCritic said:
The fact that they did not have the language of gender dysphoria would not have prevented people from documenting mass teen suicides.
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It wouldn't be massbteen suicides because it's such a tiny segment of the population, genius. It would just be sad kids killing themselves for no apparent reason.

And that really was a deeply stupid question.

You are not a smart man, despite your pretensions.
 
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AmonTobin said:
“Forcing the world to deny reality”. Wow.
You don’t have to face reality. But if you’re not going to… you can also mind. your. own. fuckin. business.
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You mean the reality that Sara McBride is a guy with a punishment? Cause that's reality.

And you can mind your own business when people that know men have a penis call Sara Mr or Congressman.

You see how simple that is?
 
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Hog-train said:
Nowhere in your linked metastudy did they say they took out "bad studies."

In fact YOUR LINK, specifically says they included ALL the studies. AND they specifically said the majority of the studies were poor to fair.

"This tool ranks each article as “good,” “fair,” or “poor,” and with this, we categorized each article into “low risk,” “moderate risk,” or “high risk” of bias, respectively."

"Quality Assessment​

Based on the NIH quality assessment tool, the majority of article ranged between “poor” and “fair” categories.<a href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8099405/#R24">24</a> (See Supplemental Digital Content 2, which displays the score of each reviewed study. http://links.lww.com/PRSGO/B599.)"




This is only talking specifically about mastectomies. That is not relevant because we have to include hormones and genital surgery.




This is for adults. Irrelevant.



AGAIN, the problem with most of these studies is that the FOLLOW UP is TOO SHORT and they're talking about adults.

We have to isolate any "regret studies" to when they TRANS KIDS and take out any adult studies.

In short, we need LONG TERM STUDIES on when they trans kids. No one has a problem with adults transitioning. They're adults, they can do whatever they want.



No one has a problem with adults transitioning.

Low Regret rates for adults is completely irrelevant to the debate we're having in society - which is about KIDS doing this shit.



1. It doesn't matter if it's rare or not. It's still wrong. And if it is so rare, why do you care if it's banned?

2. We're not only talking about surgery. We're also talking about giving cross sex hormones which obviously leads to a whole bunch of physical changes such as infertility, loss of sexual function and all the other permanent changes.



Irrelevant. Because again we're not only talking about surgery. We're talking about hormones and surgeries. The vast majority of the time, they go hand in hand.

Barely any JUST do surgery and not take hormones.



You just said they're not transing kids in real life and in the next sentence defend transing kids as life saving.

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OK I don't have time to address all of this- but what I will say is you are all over the place talking about all kinds of different things. Let's go bit by bit.

1) So we have established that adults doing this is not an issue, right? Their choice. We disagree on the evidence regarding satisfaction level for adults, but I'm sure you aren't going to try to tell me there is proof that the level of medical desistence is beyond what is acceptable; this is an adult choice so they are assuming the risk. No use spending more time on that.

2) The next thing is kids and surgery. That is basically a nonissue given it is only few per year out of tens of millions. Even if that isn't right, there are so many worse problems and so many more kids are killed other ways, it's not worth this debate.

3) As far as puberty blockers and hormones, A study by going back and looking through insurance has found that between like 2017 and 2022 there were a total of about 1000 kids on puberty blockers and about 2000 kids that were actually on hormones. That's with 300,000 trans kids in the United States so that's a very small proportion of even trans kids. The puberty blockers just put puberty on pause they don't actually change anything permanently; it is a to give them time to make the decision.

4) So if you look at a fraction of a percentage point of kids, it is highly conceivable that they have such extreme cases of gender dysphoria that something extreme would be needed so the situation won't lead to serious psychological/developmental damage, where mental health would be at high risk for an extended time and suicide actually would be a worry (and basically every other mental health problem); you are talking kids that are wildly out of the norm. If the number has jumped drastically over the last few years of kids getting this since that study, I might agree that it is being done too often and perhaps there wasn't thorough clinical evaluation going on, which would be ethically troubling. I am not convinced that is the case though.

5) What happened in the UK was that there was a massive swell in kids getting it, and some of the studies specifically on the safety and efficacy of puberty blockers just have not given us enough evidence to continue at that rate (It didn't show they were unsafe, there just wasn't enough good testing). But the UK did NOT stop it because like I'm trying to tell you, there are severe cases; what they did was make it only available in one clinic so they could watch really closely to make sure there was proper evaluation when they did it.

Puberty blockers have been in use for a long time by the way- they also sometimes given them to kids to avoid early puberty because that can be psychologically damaging. Did you know that? Gender affirming care has been around for a long time having nothing to do with trans. Were you mad about it then? If you are worried about the safety, it was just as unsafe to give it for that reason.

The truth is, regardless of where any kind of true morality sits on this issue, you and others have been suckered by the right into blowing this WAY out of proportion just given the sheer numbers involved. Did you know there are 2 million suicide attempts by kids every year in the US, and several thousand succeed? How much time have you spent typing about the cruelty of allowing kid's mental health to get this bad in forums? How upset have you gotten about in comparison to all of this fire and brimstone over trans people? There are far greater injustices going on that have far greater consequences, and I am talking specifically to kids in the US. It was a good way to get people inflamed about something that really puts people into disproportionate outrage, which I will admit was a genius con move by the Reps.

What I think about it is that kids shouldn't get surgery under 18, and any permanent hormones therapy should be extremely rare and only in a situation where everything else has been tried, there has been ample clinical evaluation, and you are basically out of other options. I get that you think it's simpler than that- that it should never happen, but I would urge you to consider that it is more complicated than that.
 
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