Elections Gary Johnson at 12% (3% away from debates), potential game changer

[Cubo de Sangre]

I came into that argument because I've studied a flat tax and fair tax plans (I'm a fucking accountant) and am very aware of the provisions.

Just recently? A few months ago you had no clue how the Fair Tax worked. Didn't even understand the prebate. Bottom line, I wasn't talking to you and I don't really care if you don't like me suggesting the guy do his own research. lol at you being an accountant meaning that you're well versed in a tax plan that was never enacted. Too funny. Have good one.

Why is that no one ever seems to offer the idea of a progressive flat tax. In other words, we keep the progressive tax structure, adjust for the end of earned income tax credits, child tax credits, corporate welfare, and close all loopholes.

I think this is how tax reform can be sold to both sides. Keep the progressive tax system, but reform it with a flat tax structure. It is the kind of compromise both parties would have made 50 years ago.

Flat tax and progressive are mutually exclusive, aren't they? Do you mean a version of the Fair Tax but adding other provisions to add more burden to high end earners?

 

[kpt018]

Just recently? A few months ago you had no clue how the Fair Tax worked. Didn't even understand the prebate. Bottom line, I wasn't talking to you and I don't really care if you don't like me suggesting the guy do his own research. lol at you being an accountant meaning that you're well versed in a tax plan that was never enacted. Too funny. Have good one.

That's bullshit. The thread is there for anyone to read so I don't care about rehashing history. And we study things in college that are both in theory and in practice so your post shows some serious ignorance there.

Unlike you I don't care about who likes who on an anonymous internet forum, I just enjoy the back and forth . But you're not even trying here. Look at your post. You just come off angry and didn't even address the points I made, which cripple your argument btw. Particularly my point that middle income earners paying more.

Why not address the points with honestly instead of slinging personal attacks? Why don't you provide the numbers that show GJ's plan is actually progressive? It's something we can easily calculate and prove. Since you're so fucking smart what is the amount of the prebate paid out?

 

[sickc0d3r]

Because you can't really tax consumption, you're still taxing production. I'd be for it only to the extent that it would incentivize savings though.

You're an anarchist so your opinion on taxes doesn't count

But seriously... yes a tax is a tax no matter whether it gets your money coming or going. But aside from encouraging savings, abolishing the irs is somewhat appealing, too, no?

 

[Greoric]

You're an anarchist so your opinion on taxes doesn't count

But seriously... yes a tax is a tax no matter whether it gets your money coming or going. But aside from encouraging savings, abolishing the irs is somewhat appealing, too, no?

Without a doubt.

 

[kpt018]

You're an anarchist so your opinion on taxes doesn't count

But seriously... yes a tax is a tax no matter whether it gets your money coming or going. But aside from encouraging savings, abolishing the irs is somewhat appealing, too, no?

Why would it be appealing? They simply enforce the law of the land.

 

[Greoric]

Why would it be appealing? They simply enforce the law of the land.

Just because its law doesn't mean its preferable or moral. I haven't seen you climb that hurdle yet.

 

[kpt018]

Just because its law doesn't mean its preferable or moral. I haven't seen you climb that hurdle yet.

I didn't say it was. I simply commented that all the IRS does is enforce the law so if you don't like it change is made through political means.

And the idea that tax collection is immoral is utterly ridiculous (if that's were you going, again). I would say it's highly immoral to abandon all the things that the government provides that help people, like unemployment payments, safety net, etc..

 

[Greoric]

I didn't say it was. I simply commented that all the IRS does is enforce the law so if you don't like it change is made through political means.

And the idea that tax collection is immoral is utterly ridiculous (if that's were you going, again). I would say it's highly immoral to abandon all the things that the government provides that help people, like unemployment payments, safety net, etc..

Ok, I don't have a problem with the first part.

As far as your moral claim, and at the risk of railroading the thread, why? The only thing you offered the last time we spoke was that they're necessary for a civil society, but you never qualified that. Moreover, you have to explain why that's a morally consistent position to take. If you agree stealing is wrong, why is it acceptable for the powers that be to steal? Is it just defined by a right of the majority? In which case do the ethics of every other moral action change because a majority voted?

Why are the things you listed necessarily commensurate with government taxation?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

But you're not even trying here.

Good catch. I try to avoid you and here's why. You're damn near always an argumentative dickhead to me and don't come a cross as intelligent enough for me to subject myself to it. There's nothing you can provide that I can't get in a better form from someone else here. Neither in terms of substance nor style. Interacting with you is tedious at best.

Clear enough? Had you ever made a sustained effort to not be an ass maybe I'd feel differently. That's my opinion, for your information only, and not intended to kick off a discussion about it. You do your thing and I'll do mine.

 

[Jack V Savage]

A flat tax is regressive by definition. If a tax is progressive that means it has brackets that increase with income.

And politicians have been arguing to end various credits and loopholes since the end of time but they can never agree on which ones to close.

Yeah, it's theoretically possible to describe our current system as a form of "progressive flat tax." Just say that the top rate is the actual, flat rate, and you get to write off a portion if you make less than $466,950 in taxable income as a couple. Presto! Hendo should be happy. That is, unless the actual goal is to change the distribution in America.

I've said it before, but fiscal categories are really fuzzy. The important issue is how policy affects after-tax income.

 

[TheStruggle]

‘Libertarian’ Gary Johnson Prefers Government Control to Religious Freedom

http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presi...prefers-government-control-religious-freedom/

Is that the exact opposite of what Libertarians stand for?

 

[Greoric]

‘Libertarian’ Gary Johnson Prefers Government Control to Religious Freedom

http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presi...prefers-government-control-religious-freedom/

Is that the exact opposite of what Libertarians stand for?

If the facts are as represented, I disagree with him here. People have the right to unabridged freedom of association, otherwise in this case you're pro slavery.

 

[sickc0d3r]

Why would it be appealing? They simply enforce the law of the land.

It's not that I have a problem with their function or anything like that. I just don't enjoy doing my taxes.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

‘Libertarian’ Gary Johnson Prefers Government Control to Religious Freedom

http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presi...prefers-government-control-religious-freedom/

Is that the exact opposite of what Libertarians stand for?

Sounds like he's placing more importance on regulating commerce such that people aren't allowed to discriminate than he is on religion as an excuse to discriminate. Sounds like a viewpoint that would appeal to liberals. Makes sense to me in the context of the times. I can see churches being exempt from performing ceremonies they don't like. There's far more logic to that then refusing photography services to a gay wedding. Should the photographer be forced? I don't think so but I see his point about the can of worms. Tough issue. I guess that's why Libertarians are self-proclaimed social liberals.

 

[Trotsky]

As horribly misguided and illiterate with regard to federal economics as Johnson may be, I am certainly rooting for him. Every dent to the two-party stranglehold on American policy is a win for the American people.

 

[Greoric]

As horribly misguided and illiterate with regard to federal economics as Johnson may be, I am certainly rooting for him. Every dent to the two-party stranglehold on American policy is a win for the American people.

How is he "illiterate" with "federal economics"... whatever the fuck that is?

 

[VivaRevolution]

A flat tax is regressive by definition. If a tax is progressive that means it has brackets that increase with income.

And politicians have been arguing to end various credits and loopholes since the end of time but they can never agree on which ones to close.

Hence the idea of a progressive flat tax. We end all of the credits and loopholes, and adjust tax rates accordingly.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Flat tax and progressive are mutually exclusive, aren't they? Do you mean a version of the Fair Tax but adding other provisions to add more burden to high end earners?

The idea I think most people like about the flat tax system, is that is closes all loopholes, credits, and subsidies, the part many have a problem with is the idea that the millionaire pays the same rate as janitor.

What I mean by a progressive flat tax, is to take the best part of the flat tax system, in simplifying, and removing the cronyism, without having the more controversial aspect of the same rate for everyone.

I do believe that is the fair tax idea from the little I have read on it, but I think it is marketed and branded better as a progressive flat tax, in that it appeals to both sides.

 

[Greoric]

Hence the idea of a progressive flat tax. We end all of the credits and loopholes, and adjust tax rates accordingly.

Perhaps he doesn't like it because it puts him out of a job if he's a tax accountant.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

The idea I think most people like about the flat tax system, is that is closes all loopholes, credits, and subsidies, the part many have a problem with is the idea that the millionaire pays the same rate as janitor.

What I mean by a progressive flat tax, is to take the best part of the flat tax system, in simplifying, and removing the cronyism, without having the more controversial aspect of the same rate for everyone.

I do believe that is the fair tax idea from the little I have read on it, but I think it is marketed and branded better as a progressive flat tax, in that it appeals to both sides.

Gotcha.

What appeals to me is not having the prospect of the feds rifling through all of my personal finances, which taxing income allows them to do. The best of both worlds imo is a progressive consumption tax. That's why starting with the Fair Tax and tweaking for satisfaction is something I'd like to get more consideration.