Garry Tonon plans MMA debut

[BJJ_Rage]

Thank you for talking about this...Spot on. I'm sick of bjj guys going from "Pulling guard will always be an option because I'm not a wrestler...."

TO....."wah wah wah wahhhhh:icon_cry2. I can NEVER learn to wrestle, I'll try a few katas at the beginning of class, get mad when I'm (surprise, surprise) lose because I'm a white belt at it, so I'm just going to chalk it up to athleticism and come up with every sophist inverted logic argument I can to justify having absolutely nothing in the stand-up department."

It's not complicated, shut up and practice. There are a lot of "athletic" wrestlers who really are not better athletes than the bjj guy their rolling with...but they put in the reps and developed the mentality

QUOTEBen Askren didn't medal in the olympics at all.
He has awesome wrestling and good sport bjj.QUOTE

Oh and as far as the Askren wasn't elite or that good because he didn't "medal at the Olympics" .... idk how to um correct how dumb or deliberately ignorant that is:redface:

*oh and it is a well known fact that Askren developed his funky style because he wasn't athletic enough, to stop someone from getting to his legs or for him to blast double someone...so he said, "I don't feel like losing so I'll get creative". OH. MY. GOD. there are wrestlers who are creative,less strong or athletic, and still OMG:redface: win....
wow, apparently not all wrestlers are steroid injecting meatheads like Mark Coleman

If this seems harsh, it's because I have realized that a lot of the bjj mentality that wrestling requires being a meathead, athletic, and is not at all cerebral seems to come from Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman, and Mark Kerr. And it's starting to get annoying how deliberately ignorant people are being about this issue

someone who went thorugh HS and College wrestling IS an elite athlete, thats because the none elite simple do not make it through it. Wrestling filters the man from the boys, bjj doesnt, you can get a bjj black betl just by training long enough and being good at your technique, you dont even have to compete.

No one is saying wrestlers are a bunch if steroids meathead, but to say there isnt a significant advantage of phsyical skills (normally) between the average bjj player and the average wrestler is just plain stupid, wrestling has been around 1000X and the talent pool is 1000x the talent pool of bjj, such sports normally damands much better athletes.

And pulling guard should always be and option for a good bjj fighter (and im not talking strictly about close guard, as a matter of fact, regular close guard is asking to get punch in the face and for a stand up at best)... May be is not an option of a wrestler/boxer, it should be though for a bjj based fighter.

 

[rmongler]

the point is not that there is not a lot of top tier talent in wrestling, the point is that thats irrelevant.

'theres a guy who went to the olympics and ill never beat him, all is lost'. yes, what a world where you wont beat an olympic champion at his chosen vocation. but guess what, youre competing with a bunch of guys who wont either. *those* are the guys who you should be worrying about, *those* are the guys who you will have an advantage over if you take your stand up more seriously.

its like, imagine youre in a cave with a group of people, and youre wearing a blind fold. you tell yourself, 'well ive been wearing this blindfold for so long, i might as well just get used to it.' but guess what, everyone else is wearing a blindfold too!, and telling themselves the exact same thing! and to each other even! does noone else see the irony? its all a big giant farce!

the point is not that you should be the next wimbleton cup long distance shooting champ, the point is to just take the dang blindfold off. in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

 

[jack36767]

someone who went thorugh HS and College wrestling IS an elite athlete, thats because the none elite simple do not make it through it. Wrestling filters the man from the boys, bjj doesnt, you can get a bjj black betl just by training long enough and being good at your technique, you dont even have to compete.

No one is saying wrestlers are a bunch if steroids meathead, but to say there isnt a significant advantage of phsyical skills (normally) between the average bjj player and the average wrestler is just plain stupid, wrestling has been around 1000X and the talent pool is 1000x the talent pool of bjj, such sports normally damands much better athletes.

And pulling guard should always be and option for a good bjj fighter (and im not talking strictly about close guard, as a matter of fact, regular close guard is asking to get punch in the face and for a stand up at best)... May be is not an option of a wrestler/boxer, it should be though for a bjj based fighter.

Hence the fact I said...pulling guard should always be an option. You know as well as I do that there is a very distinct difference between strategically pulling guard like Marcelo would to beat someone who's wrestling is better....and being terrified of and refusing to do ANY stand-up...

You know that this was one of my big points, if not the main one.... On top of the fact that I was specifically referring to athletic ability which is what most bjj guys reference when they talk about it...not the fact that me or other decent wrestlers actively competed and trained more.

Me and my roommate who is a brown belt actually talked about this...90% of the time. It seems to be that the people who complain the most about wrestling being attribute dependent to be good at or that wrestlers just win because their athletes. ARE NOT the older practitioners and hobbyists...instead most of the time they're the younger blue and purple belts (usually athletic and thinking about doing MMA) that are annoyed that the wrestler can walk in and positionally dominate if not hold his own with way less experience. (in pure bjj)

I am not saying this is you at all, please understand. And you are absolutely correct about the fact that, at this time at least, wrestling has a much deeper talent pool, tradition, and vetting process to draw from and produce elite competitors.

The reason I get so fired up about this issue is that I have genuinely seen, both online and in person, that the people who say wrestling is "crude" and "too attribute dependent" to learn...or even like rmongler said "I'm never going to ever get it so screw trying". Are almost always younger practitioners who: don't like losing to the wrestler, don't want to go through being a white belt again, want an excuse for why they lose to wrestlers, and don't want to admit that OMG bjj isn't the end all-be all and I might need to cross-train. I will discuss the merits or flaws of guard pulling, sport bjj's effectiveness in MMA, or anything else...I REFUSE to tolerate copt out excuses that amount to I'm too lazy or insecure to just shut up and train