Garry Tonon plans MMA debut

[Deleted member 429137]

As a historical matter that's just not true. If anything, there are a higher percentage of sport competitors staying in sport nowadays. Back in the early days of MMA, sport BJJ was viewed as a means to an end, and the grapplers were expected to fight. So many of the "old school" BJJ champs have fought vale tudo or MMA. It is only today that we are beginning to see the professional BJJ grappler as a career choice, completely unconnected to MMA. There are still plenty of converts, probably more numerically, but less proportionally.

Between the Gracie era of NHB and now the number of high level BJJ guys had declined greatly. Now champion BJJ fighters are starting to make the transition much like the American wrestlers did. Or so it appears to me. And I'm really excited about it.

 

[platfox]

I think he would wreck Aldo in time. Aldo isn't that great of a grappler, true he is good but in a pure grappling match Tonon would destroy.

Urijah, Chad Mendes (twice), Ricardo Lamas, and Frankie disagree.

Maybe in time (like you said), as in when Aldo is past his prime maybe. We haven't even seen Tonon train mma yet, let's not start calling wins over the a P4P champ yet

 

[nodferatu]

Urijah, Chad Mendes (twice), Ricardo Lamas, and Frankie disagree.

Maybe in time (like you said), as in when Aldo is past his prime maybe. We haven't even seen Tonon train mma yet, let's not start calling wins over the a P4P champ yet

In time maybe, but at that time Aldo wouldn't be around or if he was it would be past his prime.

I would put Tonons ground game as more complete over the guys you listed.

P4P rankings are complete bullshit unless you actually go out of your division and dominate another division. The only time Aldo moved up to Lightweight in his career was early on and he lost. Not shitting on Aldo, but I am shitting on the UFC P4P rankings.

 

[platfox]

In time maybe, but at that time Aldo wouldn't be around or if he was it would be past his prime.

I would put Tonons ground game as more complete over the guys you listed.

P4P rankings are complete bullshit unless you actually go out of your division and dominate another division. The only time Aldo moved up to Lightweight in his career was early on and he lost. Not shitting on Aldo, but I am shitting on the UFC P4P rankings.

Wait are we talking about grappling for mma or just grappling no strikes? Because while Tonon hasn't fought nor is there footage of him training mma, we have seen Urijah submit 19 guys in mma, Chad blast doubles on almost every person he's faced, Lamas smash peoples faces through the canvas while on top and Frankie...well Frankie has basically never been close to out wrestled.

We have no idea how Tonon will do in an mma match. Can he shoot singles and doubles while people are throwing uppercuts and knees, can he hold people down as they are throwing up strikes from the bottom, can he keep people from cage walking on him, etc..? These are all question marks on Tonon. All I'm saying is to already say Tonon would be a good match for Aldo and that his mma grappling is already better than the guys listed above is more than pure speculation.

Regarding P4P, I was just using that as an example of just how good Aldo is.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

As a historical matter that's just not true. If anything, there are a higher percentage of sport competitors staying in sport nowadays. Back in the early days of MMA, sport BJJ was viewed as a means to an end, and the grapplers were expected to fight. So many of the "old school" BJJ champs have fought vale tudo or MMA. It is only today that we are beginning to see the professional BJJ grappler as a career choice, completely unconnected to MMA. There are still plenty of converts, probably more numerically, but less proportionally.

while this is true, I think the new influex of bjj black belts turining to mma is quite different than the old guard of bjj fighters.

Old guard of fighters was a mixed of truly elite fighters (those who made it to pride the whole BTT team) and a huuuuge influx of hobbiest black belts wanting to try his hands on mma and defend the bjj flag. What has changed? hobbiest black belts dont feel the need anymore to go to MMA, back in the days, a hobbiest could faced a d1 wrestler in a regional show, hell d2 JUCO hell even a high school wrestler couldve been too much for some random black belt, in mma the athletisim counts, A LOT, specially when you bag of tricks is known by everyone.

Then you had the elite bjj guys turning to mma with mix success, just as any other elite athlete.

One problem with traditional bjj approach to MMA is that wrestlers are really hard to take down, and normally since they are such a good athletes, in the stand up department, they are much better too... You of course have freak of nature such as jacare and maia who are still taking wrestlers down left and right, but that is not the norm, bjj guys had to improve so much their td skills to be relevant again, the new influx of sporty bjj guys transitioning to mma are very good athletes and have an approach that could really cause wrestlers some problems, time will say how much of these sporty techniques can be used in MMA.

 

[nodferatu]

Wait are we talking about grappling for mma or just grappling no strikes? Because while Tonon hasn't fought nor is there footage of him training mma, we have seen Urijah submit 19 guys in mma, Chad blast doubles on almost every person he's faced, Lamas smash peoples faces through the canvas while on top and Frankie...well Frankie has basically never been close to out wrestled.

We have no idea how Tonon will do in an mma match. Can he shoot singles and doubles while people are throwing uppercuts and knees, can he hold people down as they are throwing up strikes from the bottom, can he keep people from cage walking on him, etc..? These are all question marks on Tonon. All I'm saying is to already say Tonon would be a good match for Aldo and that his mma grappling is already better than the guys listed above is more than pure speculation.

Regarding P4P, I was just using that as an example of just how good Aldo is.

I think we're misunderstanding each other on a couple of things. I was speaking of straight grappling, no strikes. Tonon's game is more complete IMO. All the guys you've mentioned are great at wrestlefucking people, no doubt about it but they will always go back to their base...wrestling.

I think Tonon will do the same thing that Hall does. A couple strikes, takedown or drop for a leg lock. It would be bad ass if he walks out there and K.O's though.

Once again, I said in time Tonon would be a good match for Aldo. His wrestling/BJJ will only get better over time and if he put time in his hands he would be a nightmare for a lot of people, Aldo included. Of course all of this is speculation though, which is about 80% of sherdog's threads anyways.

 

[platfox]

Ah ok, I get it.

 

[kjg1672]

Oh my mistake. I read that he sought out wrestling with the Rutgers team or something like that. I thought that was the extent of his wrestling background.

I don't think he wrestled in high school, but he did when he was younger, maybe middle school. I think his main wrestling coach is Matt Pletcher, who is a former Rutgers wrestler.

 

[ChainFlow]

I don't think he wrestled in high school, but he did when he was younger, maybe middle school. I think his main wrestling coach is Matt Pletcher, who is a former Rutgers wrestler.

I think you're right.

 

[mataleaos]

I think Tonon will do really good if he takes his time and doesn't try to dive in the deep end right away. I don't know how his wrestling is for wrestling's sake, but for bjj it's better than most. His leg lock game is a giant plus, but even in a more traditional sense I think he could do really good with his scrambles to the back and to kimuras and high elbow guillotines. Especially if he develops some standup and gnp I can see him being able to force a lot of opening to catch his subs. He's also not a traditional guard passer or even a traditional sweeper. I think that could also benefit him. I'm sure he'll make it exciting regardless.

 

[black belch]

We had several years of high-level wrestlers taking over the sport. Now we're seeing a bunch of high-level jujitsuka getting interested. I think with enough champion BJJ guys coming in we'll see them rise to prominence as American wrestlers did.

I would not be surprise if we then see the same journey with high-level strikers and twenty-years from now realize that high-level any-fighting-sport can train and fight their way to the top of MMA.

Jiu jitsu already "has" 3 UFC belts in aldo, dos anjos and werdum.. you can argue ronda is newaza heavy, kinda jiu jitsu. Yeah there are more wrestlers in UFC, mainly because its biased towards americans.. in jungle fight and brazilian orgs there are plenty of jiu jitsokas

 

[rmongler]

One problem with traditional bjj approach to MMA is that wrestlers are really hard to take down, and normally since they are such a good athletes, in the stand up department, they are much better too... You of course have freak of nature such as jacare and maia who are still taking wrestlers down left and right, but that is not the norm, bjj guys had to improve so much their td skills to be relevant again, the new influx of sporty bjj guys transitioning to mma are very good athletes and have an approach that could really cause wrestlers some problems, time will say how much of these sporty techniques can be used in MMA.

I wouldn't call Maia a freak of nature, he's just a guy who saw the writing on the wall and took his training seriously.

lack of talent or ability isint an adequate explanation for why bjj guys always seem on the back foot when it comes to acquiring dominant position. it seems to me like there is a pervasive psychological block in the bjj community on the question of training stand up: 'its hopeless', 'there will always be someone better', 'I'll never 'catch up' ', 'im a 'jiu jitsu' fighter and its not 'jiu jitsu' ', its all 'attribute based', or 'nontechnical', so 'there's no point training if you don't 'got it' already' (which raises the question of why wrestlers bother to train either, but who needs logic), and et cetera et cetera.

in another story, people in other grappling disciplines often espoused the virtues of leg attacks, while they were of course poopoohed in the mainstream jitsusphere. but of course, given that their virtues are self evident and a matter of immediate practical experience, it was only inevitable that there would be breakouts. and now that a few fairly high level guys have now done so, it seems like people are now falling over themselves to dissimulate previous attitudes and 'rechristen' leg attacks. obviously i dont think this newfound interest is wrong in of itself, but feels as though there is, shall we say, a taint of slime about the whole business. perhaps they are thinking: 'thank goodness, finally I have a better excuse for not bothering to stub my toes in scrambles'.

so what we have are two different reactions to two things that both have successful examples and both having little history heretofore in bjj tradition; Gracie, sport, or otherwise. what this tells me is that what lies at the heart of this issue is a defensive mindset that has difficulty imagining itself succeeding at being proactive.

here's the thing, a guy like Ben askren is just about as opposed to what you might call an 'explosive athlete' as you can get, and he's also a guy who was NCAA champion, and represented america at the olympics. here's another, guys like Ben askren, or any other medalist, are one in a billion talents. the scene is full of guys in the same situations as each other, and if one of them took their stand up training a little more seriously, they could enjoy the same advantages over them that wrestlers do already.

as long as these mental blocks persist, it really *will* be pointless, as you trap yourself in a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[yetanother]

Ben Askren didn't medal in the olympics at all.
He has awesome wrestling and good sport bjj.

 

[rmongler]

you're right, he medaled at the grappling world championships, a year later. his folkstyle game was not such a good fit for the freestyle ruleset.

 

[chunglii]

Garry Tonon signs 11.5 fight deal with Sakakibara's NYE event.

https://www.facebook.com/tdeblass/posts/10156044035380627

Whatever the fuck that means.

 

[mataleaos]

Garry Tonon signs 11.5 fight deal with Sakakibara's NYE event.

https://www.facebook.com/tdeblass/posts/10156044035380627

Whatever the fuck that means.

Damn so he's leaving sooner than later?

 

[platfox]

That was Tom DeBlass trolling Facebook. The 11.5 fight deal should have given it away.

 

[Jeff Goldblum69]

that I would love to see

it would probably be a stand up stalemate...

 

[TheSubmissionCh]

Considering he's planning on making 149 for NoGi worlds (matside weigh ins), making 145 with day-before weigh-ins should be cake. Heck, it's 3 lbs when you consider he won't have to wear a rash guard and shorts on the scale...

Then he could make bantamweight (135).

 

[jack36767]

I wouldn't call Maia a freak of nature, he's just a guy who saw the writing on the wall and took his training seriously.

lack of talent or ability isint an adequate explanation for why bjj guys always seem on the back foot when it comes to acquiring dominant position. it seems to me like there is a pervasive psychological block in the bjj community on the question of training stand up: 'its hopeless', 'there will always be someone better', 'I'll never 'catch up' ', 'im a 'jiu jitsu' fighter and its not 'jiu jitsu' ', its all 'attribute based', or 'nontechnical', so 'there's no point training if you don't 'got it' already' (which raises the question of why wrestlers bother to train either, but who needs logic), and et cetera et cetera.

in another story, people in other grappling disciplines often espoused the virtues of leg attacks, while they were of course poopoohed in the mainstream jitsusphere. but of course, given that their virtues are self evident and a matter of immediate practical experience, it was only inevitable that there would be breakouts. and now that a few fairly high level guys have now done so, it seems like people are now falling over themselves to dissimulate previous attitudes and 'rechristen' leg attacks. obviously i dont think this newfound interest is wrong in of itself, but feels as though there is, shall we say, a taint of slime about the whole business. perhaps they are thinking: 'thank goodness, finally I have a better excuse for not bothering to stub my toes in scrambles'.

so what we have are two different reactions to two things that both have successful examples and both having little history heretofore in bjj tradition; Gracie, sport, or otherwise. what this tells me is that what lies at the heart of this issue is a defensive mindset that has difficulty imagining itself succeeding at being proactive.

here's the thing, a guy like Ben askren is just about as opposed to what you might call an 'explosive athlete' as you can get, and he's also a guy who was NCAA champion, and represented america at the olympics. here's another, guys like Ben askren, or any other medalist, are one in a billion talents. the scene is full of guys in the same situations as each other, and if one of them took their stand up training a little more seriously, they could enjoy the same advantages over them that wrestlers do already.

as long as these mental blocks persist, it really *will* be pointless, as you trap yourself in a self fulfilling prophecy.

Thank you for talking about this...Spot on. I'm sick of bjj guys going from "Pulling guard will always be an option because I'm not a wrestler...."

TO....."wah wah wah wahhhhh:icon_cry2. I can NEVER learn to wrestle, I'll try a few katas at the beginning of class, get mad when I'm (surprise, surprise) lose because I'm a white belt at it, so I'm just going to chalk it up to athleticism and come up with every sophist inverted logic argument I can to justify having absolutely nothing in the stand-up department."

It's not complicated, shut up and practice. There are a lot of "athletic" wrestlers who really are not better athletes than the bjj guy their rolling with...but they put in the reps and developed the mentality

QUOTEBen Askren didn't medal in the olympics at all.
He has awesome wrestling and good sport bjj.QUOTE

Oh and as far as the Askren wasn't elite or that good because he didn't "medal at the Olympics" .... idk how to um correct how dumb or deliberately ignorant that is:redface:

*oh and it is a well known fact that Askren developed his funky style because he wasn't athletic enough, to stop someone from getting to his legs or for him to blast double someone...so he said, "I don't feel like losing so I'll get creative". OH. MY. GOD. there are wrestlers who are creative,less strong or athletic, and still OMG:redface: win....
wow, apparently not all wrestlers are steroid injecting meatheads like Mark Coleman

If this seems harsh, it's because I have realized that a lot of the bjj mentality that wrestling requires being a meathead, athletic, and is not at all cerebral seems to come from Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman, and Mark Kerr. And it's starting to get annoying how deliberately ignorant people are being about this issue