Game Services thread, v2: Ubisoft headline portends a darker gaming future

[Madmick]

Here's what I'm going to say about the PC snobbery that paints the best of these Cloud gaming services as "bad". Because it's nonsense. It's astounding how good they've already gotten even in rural areas like those where I live. Can they match the quality of a local rig in terms of either latency or graphical quality-- even a modest PC? Of course not. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that they make almost all of the latest and greatest single player games entirely playable on extremely low-end devices. They're viable.

Look at the internet latency for NVIDIA GeForce Now at various settings, for example, the one I have repeatedly praised as the best of the cloud gaming services:

• High = 79.9ms - 91.0ms (~10.3 frames @120fps)
• Very High = 115.4ms - 157.3ms
• Ultra = 159.9ms - 179.8ms

Now peep this. This was an article by DisplayLag showing the average latency on the PS4 and Xbox One just six years ago in 2015. This wasn't forever ago. This was just the previous generation. This was published only two years before the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X launched, for God's sake. This doesn't measure internet latency. This measures local latency from pressing a button on your controller to when that action would show up on the screen of your display. Normally, this website tested that lag for the displays, but for this article, they decided to test the latency of the video games themselves:
Console Latency: Exploring Video Game Input Lag | DisplayLag

Here are the results of video games I have tested so far for input lag. These results are an average of ten button presses, and they include display latency. You can subtract 10ms from these results to get an idea of true game latency

PlayStation 4 Results:

• Dashboard 76ms
• Destiny 107ms
• Driveclub 116ms
• Guilty Gear Xrd -SIGN- 89ms
• Killzone: Shadow Fall 119ms
• Mortal Kombat X 107ms
• The Last of Us: Remastered 111ms

Xbox One Results:

• Dashboard 87ms
• Destiny 96ms
• Forza Horizon 2 149ms
• Halo 1: Master Chief Collection 84ms
• Halo 2: Master Chief Collection 84ms
• Halo 3: Master Chief Collection 106ms
• Halo 4: Master Chief Collection 93ms
• Killer Instinct 81ms
• Mortal Kombat X 105ms
• Sunset Overdrive 128ms

GeForce Now in 2021 on "High" settings is outperforming the PS4 and Xbox One's local performance from these 2015 tests.

Even if you look at the updated database it hangs right in there. Normally, we'd have to consider the difference of a PC game vs. a console game, and add the difference in overall latency to our PC results. The PC is faster, but for Street Fighter IV, for example, it is only 8.33ms faster when prioritizing input lag than the final PS4 revision running the latest firmware today:
https://displaylag.com/reduce-input-lag-in-pc-games-the-definitive-guide/
https://displaylag.com/video-game-input-lag-database/

But in this case the game is streaming directly to device, so the lag is already included, and not separate from the internet delay. No need to include it.

Last I heard nobody was crying about the PS4 or the Xbox One being "unplayable" in 2015.

 

[Madmick]

@method115
The issue with Epic failing to authenticate in Playnite was a broken issue with the 8.11 version (the latest you can download). They patched it away with 8.12. I discovered this because I went back to check on it after reporting the issue to see if it was addressed, and that's when I learned from the patch notes my experience was app-wide for new users. There was a similar issue with Battle.net.

So you have to download the 8.11 version, skip the Epic & Battle.net authentications during setup, and then update the app to version 8.14, the latest version, before adding and authenticating the libraries for Epic & Battle.net.

Now the app is functional. Thought I'd throw the forum a heads up for fellow PC users interested in this true AIO launcher.
https://playnite.link/download.html

 

[NoSmilez]

Gamepass is nice. I use it once in a while and let it expire. I got really yakuza'd out lately so I took a break at 5. I probably return to it during the fall. One thing I don't like about gamepass is that if a game is slightly subpar in the beginning. I tend not to give it a chance and move on. I think I did that to that ARK game. I was like mehhh loading screen taking too long. Time to bail on it.

 

[rikwebb]

Netflix have hired Mike Verdu (ex Zynga, EA mobile, Facebook/Oculus) as VP of Game Development

https://www.theverge.com/platform/a...&utm_source=twitter&__twitter_impression=true

 

[Madmick]

Netflix have hired Mike Verdu (ex Zynga, EA mobile, Facebook/Oculus) as VP of Game Development

https://www.theverge.com/platform/a...&utm_source=twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Yeah, that's what I expected. They have no designs on competing with the Switch, Playstation, or Xbox.

They're after that casual phone market gold rush. Shit tier gaming.

 

[jefferz]

Here's what I'm going to say about the PC snobbery that paints the best of these Cloud gaming services as "bad". Because it's nonsense. It's astounding how good they've already gotten even in rural areas like those where I live. Can they match the quality of a local rig in terms of either latency or graphical quality-- even a modest PC? Of course not. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that they make almost all of the latest and greatest single player games entirely playable on extremely low-end devices. They're viable.

Look at the internet latency for NVIDIA GeForce Now at various settings, for example, the one I have repeatedly praised as the best of the cloud gaming services:

• High = 79.9ms - 91.0ms (~10.3 frames @120fps)
• Very High = 115.4ms - 157.3ms
• Ultra = 159.9ms - 179.8ms

Now peep this. This was an article by DisplayLag showing the average latency on the PS4 and Xbox One just six years ago in 2015. This wasn't forever ago. This was just the previous generation. This was published only two years before the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X launched, for God's sake. This doesn't measure internet latency. This measures local latency from pressing a button on your controller to when that action would show up on the screen of your display. Normally, this website tested that lag for the displays, but for this article, they decided to test the latency of the video games themselves:
Console Latency: Exploring Video Game Input Lag | DisplayLag


PlayStation 4 Results:

• Dashboard 76ms
• Destiny 107ms
• Driveclub 116ms
• Guilty Gear Xrd -SIGN- 89ms
• Killzone: Shadow Fall 119ms
• Mortal Kombat X 107ms
• The Last of Us: Remastered 111ms

Xbox One Results:

• Dashboard 87ms
• Destiny 96ms
• Forza Horizon 2 149ms
• Halo 1: Master Chief Collection 84ms
• Halo 2: Master Chief Collection 84ms
• Halo 3: Master Chief Collection 106ms
• Halo 4: Master Chief Collection 93ms
• Killer Instinct 81ms
• Mortal Kombat X 105ms
• Sunset Overdrive 128ms

GeForce Now in 2021 on "High" settings is outperforming the PS4 and Xbox One's local performance from these 2015 tests.

Even if you look at the updated database it hangs right in there. Normally, we'd have to consider the difference of a PC game vs. a console game, and add the difference in overall latency to our PC results. The PC is faster, but for Street Fighter IV, for example, it is only 8.33ms faster when prioritizing input lag than the final PS4 revision running the latest firmware today:
https://displaylag.com/reduce-input-lag-in-pc-games-the-definitive-guide/
https://displaylag.com/video-game-input-lag-database/

But in this case the game is streaming directly to device, so the lag is already included, and not separate from the internet delay. No need to include it.

Last I heard nobody was crying about the PS4 or the Xbox One being "unplayable" in 2015.

Let's look at a game like Rainbow Six Siege. Amazon Luna and Google Stadia are cross play, with PC players. Go ahead, hop on Siege and try to play against PC players with that lag. See what happens.

 

[KaNesDeath]

Let's look at a game like Rainbow Six Siege. Amazon Luna and Google Stadia are cross play, with PC players. Go ahead, hop on Siege and try to play against PC players with that lag. See what happens.

For multiplayer gamers like us this topic isnt even worth considering. What i believe @Madmick is trying to accomplish is a long term narrative. Which is sadly impossible for the current understanding of physics makes it impossible to achieve local console/Pc functionality.

One positive i can comment on. Over the past decade the networking hops across the USA have greatly improved. Being from NY the ping i get to Denver now is nearly 20ms lower. Still fucking sucks to play 128tick at high 60ms latency. But its marginally better than the high 80ms it was years ago.

 

[Madmick]

What matters is that they make almost all of the latest and greatest single player games entirely playable on extremely low-end devices.

 

[jefferz]

yeah, they're viable for single player maybe, but not multiplayer.

 

[Madmick]

Yes, that's why I wrote that. However, that's not entirely true.

For multiplayer gamers like us this topic isnt even worth considering. What i believe @Madmick is trying to accomplish is a long term narrative. Which is sadly impossible for the current understanding of physics makes it impossible to achieve local console/Pc functionality.

One positive i can comment on. Over the past decade the networking hops across the USA have greatly improved. Being from NY the ping i get to Denver now is nearly 20ms lower. Still fucking sucks to play 128tick at high 60ms latency. But its marginally better than the high 80ms it was years ago.

It will only work for MP if the conditions are the same as they were for the Xbox One and Playstation 4 in 2015; that is, it works if everyone is using the same hardware. So one can't expect to match up gamers on hyperfast modern PC rigs with those sub-10ms latency times against other gamers via the Cloud. However, once again, if everyone is accessing via the Cloud, this becomes more manageable. Such is a highly plausible future. In that case, differences in latency by player location become the technological challenge. Matchmaking by distance to the server center (and ISP) becomes a more significant consideration.

Since the latency is "good enough" to satisfy what gamers find tolerable to play without disrupting their enjoyment of games, as obviously it didn't bother anyone playing games locally or in online competitive multiplayer with the XB1/PS4 in 2015, then, it's good enough to support MP. The challenge now is ensuring equality of latency within that threshold.

 

[KaNesDeath]

Since the latency is "good enough" to satisfy what gamers find tolerable to play without disrupting their enjoyment of games, as obviously it didn't bother anyone playing games locally on the XB1/PS4 in 2015, then, it's good enough to support MP. The challenge now is ensuring equality of latency within that threshold.

Its viewed as acceptable for thats their default graphical choices and limitations of display type. Something that will change once Pc monitor technology becomes standardized on TV's. That'll minorly help with cloud based gaming, but will see local consoles approach Pc input latency.

 

[Madmick]

Its viewed as acceptable for thats their default graphical choices and limitations of display type. Something that will change once Pc monitor technology becomes standardized on TV's. That'll minorly help with cloud based gaming, but will see local consoles approach Pc input latency.

No. It's already been established using the Apple ruler: gamers find that level of latency "good enough". They're quite content to play with it.

We aren't discussing an ancient past that one finds unsettlingly unbearable when you revisit it. This was 5 1/2 years ago.

 

[KaNesDeath]

No. It's already been established using the Apple ruler: gamers find that level of latency "good enough". They're quite content to play with it.

Did you happen to play PUBG at release?

 

[Madmick]

Did you happen to play PUBG at release?

The game that obliterated Steam's concurrent player records while it was still in early access? Where you going with this? You gonna tell me the latency was unbearable, and that's why it notched 3 million concurrent players before it even officially launched?

 

[KaNesDeath]

Where you going with this? You gonna tell me the latency was unbearable,

Character movement controls were equivalent to driving a boat. Human mind has this great ability to adjust for sub-optimal input.

 

[greggTB]

CastletonSnob, honestly, it would be awesome if they could improve their existing products, and yes - they have to do a lot, in many directions, even if we talk about security issues. Some people who own business and promote it via the web still face some issues in the Google My Business. Fortunately we have a lot of articles like this ( here: https://whitespark.ca/blog/whitesparks-guide-to-optimizing-google-my-business/ ), which can help any user in fixing those problems.

 

[Prefect]

Wrong.

The NES offered us the best videogaming graphics we had at the time. Meanwhile, in 2005, we had excellent video quality outside the internet.

By all means, I'm interested.

Sega Master System and Turbo Graphix 16 had the NES beat. Amiga, Commodore 64, Atari St, FMTowns all had it beat by a lot. Games like SMB3 only got close to the other systems because they were loading the cartridges with special chips.

 

[rob mafia]

Sega Master System and Turbo Graphix 16 had the NES beat. Amiga, Commodore 64, Atari St, FMTowns all had it beat by a lot. Games like SMB3 only got close to the other systems because they were loading the cartridges with special chips.

the turbografx 16 came out years later... closer to the snes. the c64 graphics were not as good as the nes... they were pretty terrible graphically.

i'm not sure the c64/amiga/atari are even really comparable, though - anyway. they were computers.

 

[elreece]

Dont know whats you guys are arguing about, dozens of people are enjoying Stadia, DOZENS I tell you.

 

[Prefect]

the turbografx 16 came out years later... closer to the snes. the c64 graphics were not as good as the nes... they were pretty terrible graphically.

i'm not sure the c64/amiga/atari are even really comparable, though - anyway. they were computers.

The Turbo Graphix 16/ PC Engine came out 4 years before the SNES.