For those who defend the Rozen/Reem call as a TKO, what do you consider a knockdown?

[josephsjoseph]

What if he landed another punch and the large section of ripped lip came off.. could they have fixed ir

 

[Doctor Lenovo]

I've got to know, because knockdowns happen literally all the time in fights and the fight goes on. Here's the sequence in question:

Yes, Overeem was wobbly getting up. Yes, his lip was badly damaged. Yes, Rosie would have probably finished the fight if he had followed up.

But he didn't.

I'm not in the "if he dies, he dies" camp by any stretch of the imagination, but plenty of fighters have been wobbled by a strike and then clinched or grappled or otherwise gave themselves time to recover. That's a part of fighting, and again, we see it all the time. We saw it on this very card in prior fights.

So, let's put aside all the what-ifs and get down to the basics. Those of you who defend the stoppage, what do you consider a knockdown, and when should the fight be stopped or left to continue?

EDIT: One more question to round things out. You often hear in commentary (especially Rogan's) about a fighter getting "rocked." But the fight goes on. So again, how is that different? For those saying a TKO is legitimate because a fighter is wobbly or not all there, should all fights be stopped as soon as someone is rocked? If not, where do you draw that line?

The perfect example of a knockdown is Khabib vs Conor. Clearly. Very different from the Overeem versus Rozenstriuk situation.

 

[cade187]

FUCKING BULLSHIT STOPPAGE .... no other way.
And in this case also an ultimate robbery.
Saying anything else makes you just look stupid

This is a very objective, unemotional post.

 

[Mmmmmmma1234]

I've got to know, because knockdowns happen literally all the time in fights and the fight goes on. Here's the sequence in question:

Yes, Overeem was wobbly getting up. Yes, his lip was badly damaged. Yes, Rosie would have probably finished the fight if he had followed up.

But he didn't.

I'm not in the "if he dies, he dies"

Watch your own clip. Dan is yelling at rozen to stop, then taps him away. Rozen didn’t walk away out of the kindness in his heart, he obeyed the ref instructions. If Dan not stopping that reem is taking serious shots, this isn't boxing where a ref gives a fighter 10 seconds, he indicated to stop and the fight ends.

 

[legcramp]

The perfect example of a knockdown is Khabib vs Conor. Clearly. Very different from the Overeem versus Rozenstriuk situation.

Clearly that didn't even count as a knockdown.

 

[legcramp]

Watch your own clip. Dan is yelling at rozen to stop, then taps him away. Rozen didn’t walk away out of the kindness in his heart, he obeyed the ref instructions. If Dan not stopping that reem is taking serious shots, this isn't boxing where a ref gives a fighter 10 seconds, he indicated to stop and the fight ends.

He looks away before Dan was even reacting to it... he was trying to do a Mark Hunt walk away but failed. Maybe use a computer that can play the gif correctly not running Windows 95.

 

[Mmmmmmma1234]

He looks away before Dan was even reacting to it... he was trying to do a Mark Hunt walk away but failed. Maybe use a computer that can play the gif correctly not running Windows 95.

You're either ignorant or blind. He looked at dan who told him to stop. Not this fantasy you've created where he wants to hunt.

 

[Tyler Durden]

Does this look like a fighter “intelligently defending himself”?

 

[fortheo]

There's zero to debate here, the stoppage was textbook.

A knockdown would consist of a fighter going down while still somewhat in control of his body. Overeem was stiff and just collapsed. Cut and dry stoppage there.

Yep. A fighter typically needs to show signs of consciousness while going down, this is typically taught by trying to use yours arms to break your fall or even doing some tony Ferguson Esq turtle roll. Falling straight back like a board and not trying to break your own fall tge way overeem did is a sign of unconsciousness

 

[Mmmmmmma1234]

Does this look like a fighter “intelligently defending himself”? View attachment 690101

This is a good still shows reem defenseless.
Shows Rozenstruik looking like he might follow-up. *note he's looking at reem here, not the fantasy people been saying where he's already celebrating.
Dan is yelling to stop the fight.
And it's 4:56 the official fight time.

Obey the refs commands at all times.

 

[Galactictoenail]

Usually when a fighter is knocked down they post with their arms on the way down, it's instinct to stop yourself from crashing down and smashing your head. Reem free falls backwards completely limp, if he wasn't so close to the cage his head would have bounced off the canvas and there would be no question. You can see he wakes up from the impact of hitting the ground and then his instinct of putting his hands on the ground to get up kicks in. It's muddied by rozenstruik walking off and Dan being too far away. Usually this is the type of finish where you see the ref get in between them quicker and wave off the fight while the fighter on the ground starts trying to get hold of the refs leg.

 

[winkydinks]

Or we would have seen him walk off like he won then 4 seconds later lose the decision. Probably the dumbest stoppage ive ever seen. I would have understood if he stopped it immediately, but stopping it after overeem instantly gets up? Lol

Really? You've been watching the sport for at least a decade and THAT was the dumbest stoppage you've ever seen? You realize that they called it a KO and not a TKO right? If Overeem wasn't completely out for a second, then he was pretty close to it, not to mention the fact that his lip was flayed as well.

I hate early stoppages as much as the next guy, but I also hate when fighters go in for extra shots right after flooring their opponent. Rozenstruik didn't need to smack Overeem in the head again after the big shot the way Ngannou did after his. He certainly could have, and then the KO wouldn't be the slightest bit deniable, but I'm glad that he didn't. If walking off caused him to lose the fight, then it just encourages people to throw unneeded extra shots.

 

[Cat Biscuits]

It was when he started falling around Dan stopped it..

What’s the problem here

His hands posted almost immediately and he was getting back to his feet. He didn't flop like a dead person and bounce his head off the canvas.

Yeah the shot hurt him, but how are you going to stop it saying he wasn't going to fight back if you didn't give him a chance to?

He was clearly still there, and no one can judge if he was able to fight back or not since he was never given that option. This is why you let the fight go, because you gotta give fighters a chance to stay in there.

I don't want to see anyone have permanent brain damage, but you guys are acting like 1 good shot and the fight is automatically over... Do you guys not believe in comebacks and allowing people to push through a difficult situation?

 

[Franklin U.]

I imagine you could count the 10-7 rounds in the whole history of the UFC on one hand. You pretty much have to kill the guy to get a 10-7 round, and even then it's a toss-up.

A- I'm being facetious with the 10-7 ( 10- 8 , though, hmmmmmm- )
B- that said, I didnt have reem winning every round anyway.
C- I know the integrity of his chin has been regressed over the years so I understand the game planning but the product of that is now me yawning when Alistair fights are announced and then played out.

Again, I'm satisfied with outcome. If he did it a millisecond after the horn then wed be having a different convo-

 

[DarkneT]

His hands posted almost immediately and he was getting back to his feet. He didn't flop like a dead person and bounce his head off the canvas.

Yeah the shot hurt him, but how are you going to stop it saying he wasn't going to fight back if you didn't give him a chance to?

He was clearly still there, and no one can judge if he was able to fight back or not since he was never given that option. This is why you let the fight go, because you gotta give fighters a chance to stay in there.

I don't want to see anyone have permanent brain damage, but you guys are acting like 1 good shot and the fight is automatically over... Do you guys not believe in comebacks and allowing people to push through a difficult situation?

Fight was over
Fuck outta here

 

[Franklin U.]

Reem wasn't given a chance to defend himself since fucktard miragliotta denied him that off a KNOCKDOWN, not a knockout...

He also fucked up in the Struve fight, doesn't surprise me either. He's a shitty ref, get rid of him.

Yeah , the cat was exhausted the entire round ,hardly engaged and fell like a redwood( forget about a chunk of his upper lip landing in some gals cup of soda in the third row of arena ). I'm reading alot of these posts. As lot of " u dont know mma if...... ". This place , as usual, pure comedic gold.

 

[Gamer2k4]

Watch your own clip. Dan is yelling at rozen to stop, then taps him away. Rozen didn’t walk away out of the kindness in his heart, he obeyed the ref instructions. If Dan not stopping that reem is taking serious shots, this isn't boxing where a ref gives a fighter 10 seconds, he indicated to stop and the fight ends.

Dan's mouth is open, but you don't know that's he's yelling anything much less that the fight is over. You certainly can't hear anything on the broadcast (I just checked), and plenty of people open their mouth when they're surprised, or running, or, as in this case, both. And Rozen start to turn before Dan's mouth opens anyway.

 

[Gamer2k4]

Does this look like a fighter “intelligently defending himself”? View attachment 690101

What a ridiculous thing to say. What would you consider intelligent defense at that point? His arms up? Throwing a punch back? Maybe grappling, or going for a submission? Don't be stupid.

If Overeem had had his hands up to begin with, he wouldn't have gotten hit. So why are you so surprised that his hands aren't up now? Maybe the fight should have been stopped the second before the punch even landed, since clearly he wasn't intelligently defending himself at that point either.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Not remotely required, his face is split up to his nose and tissue went flying. If an eyeball comes out or as we've seen in the past, a bone is broken, it isn't required to confer with the ringside physician. The fight is stopped immediately. This is common sense.

Overeem was rushed out of the Octagon instead of waiting through announcements because he was having a medical emergency.

You will forget about this fight by next week and Reem will deal with it for the rest of his life. His face is mutilated and it was in danger of further permanent, irreversible damage if he was hit again. You have to be completely out of your mind to think he could sustain another punch to his face.

You and I are talking past each other.

1. The ref did not see the wound, and it played no role in the stoppage.

2. The fighter was in no danger of further damage because his opponent had walked away.

Had either of those factors gone the other way (had the ref seen the wound; or hand JR continued bombing away) we would not be having this conversation.

Moreover, I’m not even arguing that stopping the fight was “bad” or that we arrived at an unjust result. I’m simply saying that as initially handled by the ref the stoppage made little sense. If you leap in when AO goes limp — fine. If you try to give him an opportunity to regroup but then see his lip and stop it — fine. But Dan did neither. He started to leap in; then stopped to see if AO might be okay after all; then realized that JR was walking away (probably in part because of Dan’s pump fake); and only then decided to pretend like he’d been stopping it all along.

Mirg was like a chicken with his head cut off in there, that’s my only point. I don’t think that Overeem deserved to win or anything.

 

[rjmbrd]

You and I are talking past each other.

1. The ref did not see the wound, and it played no role in the stoppage.

You can clearly see Mirg staring into Overeem's face. You are basing this on your own whimsical fancy.

Either way, it matters not. It is common sense no fighter can continue with tissue flying off their face and a gruesome, medical emergency that Overeem had.

2. The fighter was in no danger of further damage because his opponent had walked away.

This matters not. The official stops a fight when one participant cannot continue. Overeem could not continue. You don't require the other participant to be pulled off.

This is common sense and does not require any further explanation.

Cheers mate