For those who defend the Rozen/Reem call as a TKO, what do you consider a knockdown?

[Gamer2k4]

He could not stand unassisted. He was not able to stand up, let alone fight at that moment

You mean without the cage? Because no one helped him stand.

Besides, what you're describing right there is pretty much the definition of being rocked. Otherwise, you're calling for sequences like the one below to be ruled TKOs:

(Take from here, which contains plenty more similar examples.)

 

[legcramp]

Haha so many casuals in here, obviously an early stoppage. The ref fucked up so he had to stop the fight twice because when he decided the first time he tried to wave it off but Overeem got right back up... if Dan just stood there and not stop it again he'll be at fault for fucking up the fight even more by initiating a stoppage while Rozen started to walk away but then deciding not to stop the fight. Rozen could've landed a follow-up to really finish it or Overeem somehow survive four seconds for the victory.

He was really rocked but not TKO/KO'd... if you disagree then that's fine not everyone understands MMA.

 

[legcramp]

So Nate/Nick Diaz has been knocked out a million times in their fights then right guys?

 

[Final Say]

You mean without the cage? Because no one helped him stand.

Besides, what you're describing right there is pretty much the definition of being rocked. Otherwise, you're calling for sequences like the one below to be ruled TKOs:

(Take from here, which contains plenty more similar examples.)

So again I ask: you get dropped hard, flash KO and sat on your ass. The guy who drops you decides not to follow you and the ref stands between you. You try to stand up but can’t stand straight and you stumble across the fence before leaning on it. You think the fight should continue?

That’s what happened to overeem

 

[Gamer2k4]

So again I ask: you get dropped hard, flash KO and sat on your ass. The guy who drops you decides not to follow you and the ref stands between you. You try to stand up but can’t stand straight and you stumble across the fence before leaning on it. You think the fight should continue?

That’s what happened to overeem

But now you're changing the question. We can keep moving the goal posts all day, but initially you asked if a fight should be continued if a fighter couldn't get up. I said no. Now we're talking about being able to stand up, but with varying levels of coherence and ability.

My general stance is that you give the woozy fighter a chance to go on. If the other guy lands several unanswered, undefended punches or knocks him down again, then yes, stop it. No need to go full Curran/Warren. Beyond that, if you want to give me a gif or a clip, I'll tell you if I think it should be a TKO or not. But pure speculation gets us nowhere.

 

[Willy Knuckles]

It was definitely an early stoppage. I don’t really understand why people are trying to justify it and I haven’t seen a convincing argument for it in this thread. It was a knockdown, fights shouldn’t get stopped over knockdowns. Speculating that he would have finished Reem is irrelevant, it’s just speculation and no one actually knows what would have happened.

From the Refs point of view he saw Reem suddenly get devestated, shit his pants and stopped it on a knee jerk reaction. Shit happens but it was still a bad call

People are calling it a bad call in hindsight though, which is crazy considering Reems lip and un fair to Dan because he made this decision in a split second. Just because it wasn't perfect, doesn't mean it was terrible. I have it as an okay stoppage nothing more nothing less

 

[Cat Biscuits]

I've got to know, because knockdowns happen literally all the time in fights and the fight goes on. Here's the sequence in question:

Yes, Overeem was wobbly getting up. Yes, his lip was badly damaged. Yes, Rosie would have probably finished the fight if he had followed up.

But he didn't.

I'm not in the "if he dies, he dies" camp by any stretch of the imagination, but plenty of fighters have been wobbled by a strike and then clinched or grappled or otherwise gave themselves time to recover. That's a part of fighting, and again, we see it all the time. We saw it on this very card in prior fights.

So, let's put aside all the what-ifs and get down to the basics. Those of you who defend the stoppage, what do you consider a knockdown, and when should the fight be stopped or left to continue?

EDIT: One more question to round things out. You often hear in commentary (especially Rogan's) about a fighter getting "rocked." But the fight goes on. So again, how is that different? For those saying a TKO is legitimate because a fighter is wobbly or not all there, should all fights be stopped as soon as someone is rocked? If not, where do you draw that line?

Reem wasn't given a chance to defend himself since fucktard miragliotta denied him that off a KNOCKDOWN, not a knockout...

He also fucked up in the Struve fight, doesn't surprise me either. He's a shitty ref, get rid of him.

 

[Willy Knuckles]

Haha so many casuals in here, obviously an early stoppage. The ref fucked up so he had to stop the fight twice because when he decided the first time he tried to wave it off but Overeem got right back up... if Dan just stood there and not stop it again he'll be at fault for fucking up the fight even more by initiating a stoppage while Rozen started to walk away but then deciding not to stop the fight. Rozen could've landed a follow-up to really finish it or Overeem somehow survive four seconds for the victory.

He was really rocked but not TKO/KO'd... if you disagree then that's fine not everyone understands MMA.

It's not a cut and dry answer lol. If someone is fine with the stoppage that doesn't mean they don't know MMA LMAOO. You think if Dan didn't get in between them, or if he yelled fight to Rozen, both of which would have happened if he ref'd it your way, that Reem wasn't going to get blasted again? Dan was touching Reem on the ground, and Rozen at the same time. If he decided right there to let it continue, he would tell Roz to keep fighting, and he would blast Reem for sure.

 

[Final Say]

But now you're changing the question. We can keep moving the goal posts all day, but initially you asked if a fight should be continued if a fighter couldn't get up. I said no. Now we're talking about being able to stand up, but with varying levels of coherence and ability.

My general stance is that you give the woozy fighter a chance to go on. If the other guy lands several unanswered, undefended punches or knocks him down again, then yes, stop it. No need to go full Curran/Warren. Beyond that, if you want to give me a gif or a clip, I'll tell you if I think it should be a TKO or not. But pure speculation gets us nowhere.

Didn’t move the goalposts, was obviously talking about the same exact situation but needed to be ultra specific for you

Obviously overeem couldn’t keep fighting, this thread has made me feel a lot better about the stoppage tbh

 

[JSF]

Reem would have survived.

Watch his fights. He either gets KTFO or he gets stunned and runs away until he survives or gets KTFO

In this case, he got stunned and then immediately popped up
like on a trampoline and started to run then DM put his hands on him. He knew it was DM and realized the fight was stopped - that shows he had his wits about him. If he didn’t have his wits and was dazed he wouldn’t know it was DM and he would have put up his hands up or even struck back (which would have been hilarious) but he was aware.

Sure it hurt him, sure it cut him, but he wasn’t done.

DM was fooled because of the walk-off, but refs shouldnt fall for that crap.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

When Silva hit Bisping with the knee, it looked impressive, but Bisping never rolled his eyes back, and he stayed awake.

Dean did the right thing not stopping the fight when Silva walked away. Dan did the right thing last night. He saw, even if all ya’ll are pretending like you didn’t.

 

[Ancient Warrior]

A quick recovery after a flash KO isn’t a sign that a fight should’ve continued.

 

[Franklin U.]

Lol - the round and the one punch of a lifetime may constitute a 10-7 round anyway . Reem lost in my book no matter what way u want to digest those last 5 seconds. The heavyweight who came to fight won in the end. I'm satisfied with outcome

 

[TRYHARD 2001]

There were a mere 6 seconds left and Rozenstruik was not in position to finish this fight after walking away early. Reem was conscious and hurt badly, but the fight didn't need to be stopped there and it would have gone to a decision where we would have got yet another draw. It was nowhere near the worst early stoppage ever, but it was still early. That's how I see it.

Mind you, if I were allowed to ref MMA, there would probably be a damn sight more fatalities in the ring. In my eyes, Mazzagatti is the Michael Jordan of MMA officials.

JUST BLEED, my friends. JUST BLEED.

 

[wanted226]

He wasn't out at all. Rozen could have easily finished with follow up punches but walked away like an idiot. This is very similar to Bisping vs Anderson. Silva probably could have finished Bisping after that amazing flying knee, but even though he was very hurt, Bisping was not out and because Anderson started walking away and celebrating there was no extra pressure for the ref (Herb Dean if I remember correctly) to stop the fight.

yes this is the analogy this thread needed. except personally I'd say the moment ping got kneed the whole fight shoukd have ended right there and then due to outperform by one of the fighters. same goes for the murder committed by Bigi Boy (shitty name and there is no way he becomes anymore of a contender himself)

 

[rjmbrd]

Sure, if the ref sees it, calls in the doc

Not remotely required, his face is split up to his nose and tissue went flying. If an eyeball comes out or as we've seen in the past, a bone is broken, it isn't required to confer with the ringside physician. The fight is stopped immediately. This is common sense.

Overeem was rushed out of the Octagon instead of waiting through announcements because he was having a medical emergency.

Dan should have let the fight go for as long as Overeem was in no immediate danger.

You will forget about this fight by next week and Reem will deal with it for the rest of his life. His face is mutilated and it was in danger of further permanent, irreversible damage if he was hit again. You have to be completely out of your mind to think he could sustain another punch to his face.

 

[kneesus]

Look at Dan closely in this gif. He comes bolting in right as Overeem bounces off the cage - great so far. But then Rozen turns and Dan bites on his body language big time and reaches out his left arm to push him away. But then Dan looks down and notices that Reem is standing up and he screeches to a fucking halt like a cartoon character and changes his mind in an instant. He then allows the fight to go on for another moment until Reem starts stumbling, then changes his mind again and calls it off.

Guy just is not thinking out there.

 

[Gamer2k4]

Lol - the round and the one punch of a lifetime may constitute a 10-7 round anyway . Reem lost in my book no matter what way u want to digest those last 5 seconds. The heavyweight who came to fight won in the end. I'm satisfied with outcome

I imagine you could count the 10-7 rounds in the whole history of the UFC on one hand. You pretty much have to kill the guy to get a 10-7 round, and even then it's a toss-up.

 

[ninjion]

It's a TKO because Reem's lip was torn in half and any more punches could have fucked his face up beyond repair. The stoppage has nothing to do with him being knocked down; everyone knows he wasn't unconscious.

 

[TRYHARD 2001]

I imagine you could count the 10-7 rounds in the whole history of the UFC on one hand. You pretty much have to kill the guy to get a 10-7 round, and even then it's a toss-up.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the first round of Maynard/Edgar I. That fight was as close as you can ever come to stopping a fighter without actually quite getting it done... like 5 freakin' times!!! Honestly, help me out here guys, I'm blanking on any others!