Law Florida to eliminate ALL vaccine mandates

[PhitePhan]

Which vaccines do you consider unsafe?

And by that I mean, vaccines for different diseases?

Safety of any vaccine has to be measured, at least to some degree, in relation to the risk of the disease. So for any vaccine to be deemed “safe”, it has to be proven to be less dangerous than the targeted disease. Agreed?

By that definition, you will be hard pressed to find any vaccine in the childhood schedule that has been proven “safe” for a healthy child. As you see me post over and over, the quality of our safety research is repeatedly found to be low/very low, and there are plenty of critical reviews that detail what this means with regards to our understanding of vaccine safety.

I think that vaccination may very well have a place, particularly in areas where childhood health problems are greater and risk of disease is greater. What we have now, is essentially one size fits all, and my child without any risk factors is given the exact same intervention as a child who is malnourished and without access to adequate health care.

 

[Mikeydontgiva]

I’m surprised this hasn’t been posted yet and apologies if I missed the thread but this is super horrible news. There needs to be more discussion in this country about parental rights. This is just child abuse to deprive your kid of a life saving vaccine. This is also a public health threat. Also if this does go through fuck ever going to Disneyland. Bunch of plague rats running around.

MY BODY, MY CHOICE

 

[Sinister]

Shame on people for asking obvious questions! And forgive people for not reading anything you post...

I didnt post it, but yes, shame on people who don't read threads they post in with provocative nonsense in.

 

[badascan]

I didnt post it, but yes, shame on people they post in threads with provocative nonsense in.

So vaccines don't protect you from the thing you're being vaccinated against?

 

[Sinister]

I'm not even touching this one but unless you are a christian scientists then you believe in modern medicine in nearly all christian circles.

Only Christian scientists don't believe in medicine. What's weird is that the left were the ones that came up with the autism is caused by childhood vaccines and caused the stir over it. As soon as the covid vaccine came out it flipped and now you've got all these people on the right. It's definitely tied to what a lot of people are reading. For instance even if you find a study that was done in some Journal but the impact factor is weak it means the study is inconclusive and has some holes in it. But people will take things and post them on the Internet like it's gospel. It's definitely a crazy time that we live in

"The left" didn't come up with it. You're conflating the skepticism of Hollywood hippy types with "the left" and that with Andrew Wakefield. Many of those Hollywood elites who espoused skepticism are now full-blown conspiracy theorists who think diseases can be treated with crystals and light. The left criticize the profit model of medicine, not the existence of it. Unless it proves to be malicious. Most of us said during covid that the one hallmark that made it easy to tell the effectiveness of the covid vaccine was how it spread through rich Countries first while poor Countries continued to be decimated and denied access to the patented formulas.

 

[Sinister]

So vaccines don't protect you from the thing you're being vaccinated against?

Yes they do. They make it more difficult for the disease to spread, and in the event you contract the disease you're far less likely to die. That's protection. Quacks will try to convince you that they're supposed to provide invulnerability to infection, which was NEVER the case.

 

[Barteh]

Most of Europe doesn't mandate vaccines for children and if they do the list of mandated vaccines is significantly lower than the egregious one in the US.

This is a great decision, but I hope in Florida they do keep recommending (certain) vaccines to kids, just a lot less than what is mandated now.

 

[Sinister]

I'm good with any study that further analyzes effects of any type of medicine. And I'm good with maybe removing something like tetanus which is not transmittable person to person. But before the diphtheria vaccine was released in the 40s we topped out at about 150,000 cases per year and mortality rate of 10-20% kids under 5 and adults over 40. Now its less than a case per year.

You've seen my Sons. Middle Son was outside playing and scraped his leg on a rusty nail...puncture wound...

 

[PhitePhan]

I'm good with any study that further analyzes effects of any type of medicine.

Are you good with the fact that the cumulative safety research into most vaccines, many of which have been given for decades, has been found to be of poor quality in meta analysis studies? Are you comfortable with adverse reporting systems that miss a significant percentage of adverse events?

And I'm good with maybe removing something like tetanus which is not transmittable person to person.

Careful, you’re wading into “anti-vaxxer” territory.

But before the diphtheria vaccine was released in the 40s we topped out at about 150,000 cases per year and mortality rate of 10-20% kids under 5 and adults over 40. Now its less than a case per year.

I can’t speak to diphtheria as I am largely ignorant on that topic/disease, however those numbers sound horrible and definitely warrant strong consideration for vaccination. From what I’ve read, there is no option to take just the diphtheria vaccine in the US which is problematic, no?

Regardless, this is still a personal choice that should not be mandated by any government, in my opinion.

Measles estimated 3 to 4 million people got measles each year in the United States, of which 500,000 were reported. From the 500,000 reported cases, 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized and 1,000 developed encephalitis (brain swelling) from measles.

I appreciate you using accurate numbers versus “cases” which over-inflate measles associated risks. The only thing you left out, was the impact of risk factors and increased understanding of how malnutrition underlies a significant percentage of severe measles outcomes. Do you think parents should be informed about risk factors for their particular child before vaccinating?

Mumps can lead to sterility in males and the list goes on and on.

Rubella can be particularly dangerous for pregnant women, as it can cause congenital rubella syndrome (CRS) in the unborn child. The mortality rate for infants born with CRS is estimated to be around 30%

Overall they are a great thing even if we need to tweak them (aluminum you mentioned).

It seems like you are ducking my point regarding the quality of safety research being so poor. Disease rates and outcomes don’t justify poor safety research, at least not if we’re going to claim to be making evidence-based decisions and branding vaccination to be “safe.”

And yes there was always either a medical exception or religious exception in most States. Religious exception is mostly for Christian scientists.

You forgot philosophical exemptions which are currently available in 16 states.

But if majority are vaccinated then the few will be the infected.

Well, obviously this depends on which vaccine we’re talking about, right?

Now in Florida few will be vaccinated over time imo leading to issues down the road.

For some vaccines, waning is responsible for issues down the road. If a child catches measles and recovers (as is the case the vast majority of the time) they won’t have any issues with measles infections in the future. Not so much for the vaccinated, and already we have whispers of adding yet another booster shot.

Concerningly, now we have more adults catching measles, and some literature suggests adults are at risk of more severe outcomes from measles. Similarly, maternal antibodies wane more quickly in vaccinated mothers, meaning that vaccination has led to newborns (who are also high risk) being at higher risk- these are also issues that should be discussed, in my opinion.

 

[Sinister]

Most of Europe doesn't mandate vaccines for children and if they do the list of mandated vaccines is significantly lower than the egregious one in the US.

This is a great decision, but I hope in Florida they do keep recommending (certain) vaccines to kids, just a lot less than what is mandated now.

Europe doesnt need to mandate because its not as full of illiterate morons who hand-wave when you mention kids getting preventable diseases. Oh and most of Europe has Universal Healthcare, and requires that jobs give adequate sick leave so people dont feel an obligation to, or even pride in, working sick.

Americans have a hard time wrapping our heads around that if we were more socially responsible, and voted for people who built better healthcare infrastructure, mandates wouldn't be as widespread. The reason this Florida thing WILL kill children is because Americans are aggressively ignorant, not because people arent capable of immunizing their kids.

 

[Cajun]

"The left" didn't come up with it. You're conflating the skepticism of Hollywood hippy types with "the left" and that with Andrew Wakefield. Many of those Hollywood elites who espoused skepticism are now full-blown conspiracy theorists who think diseases can be treated with crystals and light. The left criticize the profit model of medicine, not the existence of it. Unless it proves to be malicious. Most of us said during covid that the one hallmark that made it easy to tell the effectiveness of the covid vaccine was how it spread through rich Countries first while poor Countries continued to be decimated and denied access to the patented formulas.

Agreed and it could be mostly hollyweird at that time. But the outbreaks from not vaccinating were northeast and west coast primarily so presuming some dems (Cali as you know removed religious exemption). Here's a good article pre covid
https://www.popsci.com/timeline-autism-myth-anti-vaccine/

It could be that it was just a subset. I believe majority of people on the left and right still believe in childhood vaccines. But it's so strange to me how the subset is now a conservative breed. It's almost as if they believe these things don't exist just because you don't see them. I believe Florida will eventually find that out if they keep this up. I'm very disappointed in Ron desantis. I voted for him in the primary

 

[Sinister]

Agreed and it could be mostly hollywierd at that time. But the outbreaks from not vaccinating were northeast and west coast primarily so presuming some dems (Cali as you know removed religious exemption). Here's a good article pre covid
https://www.popsci.com/timeline-autism-myth-anti-vaccine/

It could be that it was just a subset. I believe majority of people on the left and right still believe in childhood vaccines. But it's so strange to me how the subset is now a conservative breed. It's almost as if they believe these things don't exist just because you don't see them. I believe Florida will eventually find that out if they keep this up. I'm very disappointed in Ron desantis. I voted for him in the primary

It was purposely politicized to activate a voting bloc...by people whose kids are vaccinated. Also I do think higher classes of people kind of get a cultural kick out of telling lower classes not to do things they do, but that's just me.

 

[PhitePhan]

It could be that it was just a subset. I believe majority of people on the left and right still believe in childhood vaccines. But it's so strange to me how the subset is now a conservative breed. It's almost as if they believe these things don't exist just because you don't see them. I believe Florida will eventually find that out if they keep this up. I'm very disappointed in Ron desantis. I voted for him in the primary

In my experience, antivaxxers were traditionally left-leaning with a heavy “corporations are evil” mindset. But mostly it is parents who vaccinated their child and believe their child was injured by vaccination.

That is what turned me (I’m right leaning for the most part), and my child suffered a seizure after her MMR, and went on to develop epilepsy. Unfortunately, I learned that the vast majority of vaccine injuries go unrecognized (as did my child’s for the first few years), and that our safety nets are very porous (as I’ve ranted about already). Lastly, I’ll add that my attempts to understand this complex issue have been met mainly with anger and vitriol from vaccine proponents for the most part, which creates a polarized environment where it’s hard to find middle ground.

 

[Zazen]

MY BODY, MY CHOICE

Your dead child’s body, your choice. That’s what so sad about all this. Hope RFK Jr is removed

 

[oldshadow]

I think people need a lesson on how correlation does not equal causation.

So yes people need to be open about what is needed and for which people. Some vaccines are needed and should be required for kids going to school unless there is a medical reason for them not to be.

Not the government or doctors saying don't worry about just take this shot you dont need to to know.

 

[Cajun]

Are you good with the fact that the cumulative safety research into most vaccines, many of which have been given for decades, has been found to be of poor quality in meta analysis studies? Are you comfortable with adverse reporting systems that miss a significant percentage of adverse events?

All events need to be reported. I know that the WHO gets a lot of vaccines to developing countries and reduces the rate of disease tremendously. Childhood mortality rates in Africa have been reduced by 50%.

Careful, you’re wading into “anti-vaxxer” territory.

Again that one is something you're not likely to get and is not transmissible so you're not putting other newborns at risk.

I can’t speak to diphtheria as I am largely ignorant on that topic/disease, however those numbers sound horrible and definitely warrant strong consideration for vaccination. From what I’ve read, there is no option to take just the diphtheria vaccine in the US which is problematic, no?

How can you be ignorant but promote not vaccinating children? Mortality rate is quite High for that one.

Regardless, this is still a personal choice that should not be mandated by any government, in my opinion.

The reason it is is the fact that you can spread it to newborns in a hospital. Or if enough people do not get vaccinated and an outbreak occurs the cost is on who?

I appreciate you using accurate numbers versus “cases” which over-inflate measles associated risks. The only thing you left out, was the impact of risk factors and increased understanding of how malnutrition underlies a significant percentage of severe measles outcomes. Do you think parents should be informed about risk factors for their particular child before vaccinating?

The mortality rate of measles isn't extremely high. But obviously when you had three to four million in 1940 in the population was only 130. Its highly contagious and a problem. We didn't used to need to inform parents what diphtheria was and the 10 to 20% mortality rate. Our grandparents and great grandparents dealt with smallpox, polio and many others before the vaccines for those things.

It seems like you are ducking my point regarding the quality of safety research being so poor. Disease rates and outcomes don’t justify poor safety research, at least not if we’re going to claim to be making evidence-based decisions and branding vaccination to be “safe.”

There is no medicine or vaccine out there that is 100% safe. Adverse reactions to things like ibuprofen can occur though they are rare. They're definitely going to be small populations with underlying issues that will create complications for a subset. I'm good with better tracking. Why wouldn't I be? They've been around so long and got rid of so many issues that I doubt they pay much attention. I don't believe it was nefarious

Well, obviously this depends on which vaccine we’re talking about, right?

Not really

For some vaccines, waning is responsible for issues down the road. If a child catches measles and recovers (as is the case the vast majority of the time) they won’t have any issues with measles infections in the future. Not so much for the vaccinated, and already we have whispers of adding yet another booster shot.

It's not just measles though. And obviously the nature and spread is incredibly fast and will knock adults out of work and kids out of school pretty quick so it's probably more about disruption and less about mortality here

Concerningly, now we have more adults catching measles, and some literature suggests adults are at risk of more severe outcomes from measles. Similarly, maternal antibodies wane more quickly in vaccinated mothers, meaning that vaccination has led to newborns (who are also high risk) being at higher risk- these are also issues that should be discussed, in my opinion.

Also multi coating on my phone is very complicated lol. I lose some things. It's very frustrating.

 

[Sinister]

So yes people need to be open about what is needed and for which people. Some vaccines are needed and should be required for kids going to school unless there is a medical reason for them not to be.

Not the government or doctors saying don't worry about just take this shot you dont need to to know.

Both Government and Doctors are supposed to be oath-takers to protect the citizenry. You know who doesn't take an oath? My flat-Earth neighbor who thinks supplements can prevent whooping cough

 

[Cajun]

In my experience, antivaxxers were traditionally left-leaning with a heavy “corporations are evil” mindset. But mostly it is parents who vaccinated their child and believe their child was injured by vaccination.

That is what turned me (I’m right leaning for the most part), and my child suffered a seizure after her MMR, and went on to develop epilepsy. Unfortunately, I learned that the vast majority of vaccine injuries go unrecognized (as did my child’s for the first few years), and that our safety nets are very porous (as I’ve ranted about already). Lastly, I’ll add that my attempts to understand this complex issue have been met mainly with anger and vitriol from vaccine proponents for the most part, which creates a polarized environment where it’s hard to find middle ground.

Now at least I have a better understanding of your passion. I had epilepsy from two broken noses that I had before I was 5. So I'm familiar with that as well. I understand that last part too. I think some of the issues that arise with allowing these outbreaks of some of the more serious ones that are not just a disruptive one like the measles is a cause for people's concern and passion. I think because strong adverse reaction causing long-term complications is not prevalent enough that it's paid very little attention which obviously in your case has resulted in injury. Again I don't mind research being done on how we administer, the time we administer, and how we spread these out. I welcome it. And yes even something like tetanus be removed just because it's not necessary. Because my background is in science you always have to push for new information if there is any so that you can cut off any potential issues without removing the benefit all together. Anyway good chat bud and I can see where your passion is coming from which helps me to understand your position better so I appreciate that

 

[PhitePhan]

Both Government and Doctors are supposed to be oath-takers to protect the citizenry. You know who doesn't take an oath? My flat-Earth neighbor who thinks supplements can prevent whooping cough

It’s interesting to see you rant endlessly about systemic racism in the US only to turn around and defer bodily autonomy to those same systems.

 

[Cajun]

Both Government and Doctors are supposed to be oath-takers to protect the citizenry. You know who doesn't take an oath? My flat-Earth neighbor who thinks supplements can prevent whooping cough

That made me laugh