Fighting Games Discussion

Croaker said:
I am so fucking sick of Bison. Scissor kick needs less drive gauge damage and more push back on block.

The scissor kick leaves him open for a 50/50 strike throw mix up, you cant beat the jab. The fact I'm forced to spend MORE drive gauge on a DR anyways to stop it, or spend meter to beat his fucking mix up which he can just block is retarded. Even when you win it feels like you lost. I just ran into 3 Bisons in a row, 1700 MR + I went 6-2 and felt like I went 0-6
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i do like that Gief can Tundra Storm scissor kicks
 
OnionKnight86 said:
probably not, long range maybe but i feel any good Bison player doesn't throw it from a certain range
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yeah you can space them out easily

it doesnt help you can space trap too, or just jab ch into st mp or cr mp dr bomb etc, this character needs a fix ASAP. There is no reason for him to be able to apply this much pressure for free and have essentially infinite resources while whittling away and forcing the opponent to use theirs, just to attempt to slow it down. Not even stop it.
 
After more time against Bison, I still think he's good. He loses to Zangief and Cammy for sure. That alone is gonna keep him out of winning tournaments. I've labbed and grinded this guy to near insanity. There are times where you just have to eat the scissor pressure and you can't answer. If you figure that space out, its much more bearable.
 
Croaker said:
After more time against Bison, I still think he's good. He loses to Zangief and Cammy for sure. That alone is gonna keep him out of winning tournaments. I've labbed and grinded this guy to near insanity. There are times where you just have to eat the scissor pressure and you can't answer. If you figure that space out, its much more bearable.
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TBH, I haven't played 6 all that much but Bison scissor kick pressure it's pretty much a staple for his character. His cr.lk > SK in 4 has to rank up there as one of the most annoying, but his SF5 iteration was also extremely pressure heavy. Lot's of V-Reversal's spent on him.

Have you considered Drive Reversal to bring it back to neutral?
 
SwamiLeoni said:
TBH, I haven't played 6 all that much but Bison scissor kick pressure it's pretty much a staple for his character. His cr.lk > SK in 4 has to rank up there as one of the most annoying, but his SF5 iteration was also extremely pressure heavy. Lot's of V-Reversal's spent on him.

Have you considered Drive Reversal to bring it back to neutral?
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That doesn't work because it expends meter, and goes back to his advantage in neutral, if you get burned out vs Bison he checkmates you. That's part of the reason I find him so frustrating. Using your meter to gain an advantage is completely nullified if he gets a reversal. His defensive options aren't great, but his offensive options are amazing. If he does a safe string you lose about 2 bars, which if you DR in a good space to gain advantage its 4 bars and he's expended 0.
 
Croaker said:
That doesn't work because it expends meter, and goes back to his advantage in neutral, if you get burned out vs Bison he checkmates you. That's part of the reason I find him so frustrating. Using your meter to gain an advantage is completely nullified if he gets a reversal. His defensive options aren't great, but his offensive options are amazing. If he does a safe string you lose about 2 bars, which if you DR in a good space to gain advantage its 4 bars and he's expended 0.
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Ah gotcha. I'm surprised you don't think it's worth going back to neutral vs being pressured. Bison is one of those who more than likely got buffed with the removal of free invincible reversals.
 
SwamiLeoni said:
Ah gotcha. I'm surprised you don't think it's worth going back to neutral vs being pressured. Bison is one of those who more than likely got buffed with the removal of free invincible reversals.
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Going against neutral or being pressured by Bison is in his favor. There is a lot of forgiveness in his current kit. So at the end of his pressure he can be at a more favorable range. It's not favorable to go back further, because thats in his favor. When it comes to meter management, you have to be ahead of him. If you watch Nemo play, he's just ignorant AF with Bison. It's all pressure all the time, where Kakeru is more reserved. Both ways work because of his strengths at seemingly every range.

So lets say Bison is cornered, he has strong buttons and can DR out, like everyone else, but his buttons are better. He's 1 mix up from doing a complete full screen corner carry and having all of his meter back while you have whatever from getting him to the corner. It's a lot like Ken, except Bison's reward for punishes is way higher. If you don't win neutral and he is 1 mix up at any point to total corner carry, where he can pressure you with said superior buttons, it just feels like the work you do means nothing. That's also after he's pressured you in neutral. Walking down a Bison is super difficult unless youre Gief or Cammy right now.

Edit: I think Lily and Honda do well against him too now. They're not really relevant to the meta though. I thought Chun was a strong option but I've done a 180 on that atm.
 
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Croaker said:
Going against neutral or being pressured by Bison is in his favor. There is a lot of forgiveness in his current kit. So at the end of his pressure he can be at a more favorable range. It's not favorable to go back further, because thats in his favor. When it comes to meter management, you have to be ahead of him. If you watch Nemo play, he's just ignorant AF with Bison. It's all pressure all the time, where Kakeru is more reserved. Both ways work because of his strengths at seemingly every range.

So lets say Bison is cornered, he has strong buttons and can DR out, like everyone else, but his buttons are better. He's 1 mix up from doing a complete full screen corner carry and having all of his meter back while you have whatever from getting him to the corner. It's a lot like Ken, except Bison's reward for punishes is way higher. If you don't win neutral and he is 1 mix up at any point to total corner carry, where he can pressure you with said superior buttons, it just feels like the work you do means nothing. That's also after he's pressured you in neutral. Walking down a Bison is super difficult unless youre Gief or Cammy right now.

Edit: I think Lily and Honda do well against him too now. They're not really relevant to the meta though. I thought Chun was a strong option but I've done a 180 on that atm.
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Looking at his frame data, all of his scissor kicks are negative on block. You can punish his lk scissor kick with your fastest jab/short. If there's no follow up for your character after, you can probably use your jab/short into drive rush. Condition him to that punish and when they switch to mk for the push back, look for neutral jump setups.

But yea, his neutral is hard to navigate. When I used to go to the San Diego locals, Pnoy used to light me up in every tournament. Super annoying.
 
SwamiLeoni said:
Looking at his frame data, all of his scissor kicks are negative on block. You can punish his lk scissor kick with your fastest jab/short. If there's no follow up for your character after, you can probably use your jab/short into drive rush. Condition him to that punish and when they switch to mk for the push back, look for neutral jump setups.

But yea, his neutral is hard to navigate. When I used to go to the San Diego locals, Pnoy used to light me up in every tournament. Super annoying.
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Dumb question, but can you check the frame data in-game for characters you don't own?
 
SwamiLeoni said:
Looking at his frame data, all of his scissor kicks are negative on block. You can punish his lk scissor kick with your fastest jab/short. If there's no follow up for your character after, you can probably use your jab/short into drive rush. Condition him to that punish and when they switch to mk for the push back, look for neutral jump setups.

But yea, his neutral is hard to navigate. When I used to go to the San Diego locals, Pnoy used to light me up in every tournament. Super annoying.
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If it's properly spaced you can't reach. It's a spacing trap. That's my biggest "fuck this shit" issue with him. His jab routinely hits my chun st jab. You need a 5 frame normal that reaches and doesn't have a lot of recovery. So I'm stuck with st lk
 
Croaker said:
If it's properly spaced you can't reach. It's a spacing trap. That's my biggest "fuck this shit" issue with him. His jab routinely hits my chun st jab. You need a 5 frame normal that reaches and doesn't have a lot of recovery. So I'm stuck with st lk
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Yea, that sucks. But at least you can st.lk into Drive Rush to get the KD. If you micro walk and block you could get them to to scissor kick at a bad range and then bird kick or lightening legs. But you whiff, it could get ugly.
 
SwamiLeoni said:
Yea, that sucks. But at least you can st.lk into Drive Rush to get the KD. If you micro walk and block you could get them to to scissor kick at a bad range and then bird kick or lightening legs. But you whiff, it could get ugly.
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You can't micro walk and block, you can't react to it. You can react to his psycho crusher, you can't react to scissors.
 
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