Every grappling sport on the planet has anti-stalling rules, except for MMA

[SuperNerd]

As I said.tbough they already do stand ups for no reason all the time. How much do you want a finger on the scale. At a certain point you're taking away too much from the sporting aspect.

The more you listen to MMA fans, the more you understand why pro-wrestling works, and is successful.

 

[Alpha_T83]

The more you listen to MMA fans, the more you understand why pro-wrestling works, and is successful.

But I would add: we don't need scripted fights. PRIDE already solved this problem.

 

[Mike]

I want PRIDE style rules with quicker standups and yellow cards for repeated attempts to stall the fight.

I like grappling, but I like exciting grappling. I want to see Islam give up position and go for an armbar, and risk a scramble that can lead to a reversal. I want to see Islam posture up and throw ground and pound with both arms at the same time. I want to see him try to pass to mount and risk his opponent scrambling out the back when he gets too high.

Islam fights to hold half guard & side control, and blanket his opponent. He just waits for them to get frustrated, while he fishes for his lazy, safe d'arce chokes and arm triangles, and then once his opponent makes a move to scramble or stand up, it gives him an opportunity for real submissions. He fights to make the fight boring and force a mistake. That needs to be banned.

WHEREAS Khabib actually passed guard, opened up with huge punches, and smashed guys and broke them. Khabib would have finished JDM.

I say this every time this comes up, but every year from when I started watching in 2007 until now we have been moving in the opposite direction of pride style rules. We're not getting yellow cards, and a lot of the ruleset and officiating is already biased towards strikers. And they still can't win.

It's boring as fuck when a guy just jabs from the outside for 5 rounds too, and there's absolutely nothing in the rules to punish that. So like I said.how.many concessions are we supposed to make to merit and sport to protect the strikers from grapplers?

This is supppsed to be mma. The strikers just need to get better. This stuff goes in circles and we're in a grapplers era right now. The answer is to adapt or else we're going to.end up like Karata Combat or something where it's all swanging and banging with just a vestige of grappling thrown in to appear to be anything else but pure striking.

 

[xhaydenx]

There were a few parts where I thought Islam should have at least started getting some warnings. Dude was just laying in half guard for way too long and throwing nothing but rabbit punches with a very infrequent threat of a sub attempt every now and then. Khabib was yelling smash so he should have postured up some and smashed.

 

[Pierced7681]

it kind of does though - most refs will stand guys up for LnP (eventually), and break guys up for stalling against the wall. it's just at the ref's discretion.

Lnp is only when you sit in your opponents closed guard and refuse to pass. Refs won’t stand you up from half guard, side control or mount, which is why Islam was never stood up, he passed to half guard and improved his position

 

[Alpha_T83]

I say this every time this comes up, but every year from when I started watching in 2007 until now we have been moving in the opposite direction of pride style rules. We're not getting yellow cards, and a lot of the ruleset and officiating is already biased towards strikers. And they still can't win.

It's boring as fuck when a guy just jabs from the outside for 5 rounds too, and there's absolutely nothing in the rules to punish that. So like I said.how.many concessions are we supposed to make to merit and sport to protect the strikers from grapplers?

This is supppsed to be mma. The strikers just need to get better. This stuff goes in circles and we're in a grapplers era right now. The answer is to adapt or else we're going to.end up like Karata Combat or something where it's all swanging and banging with just a vestige of grappling thrown in to appear to be anything else but pure striking.

I'm not convinced you can "get better" when it comes to fighting off guys like Islam and Khamzat.

Maybe you are right, but IMO you need to be a lifelong crotch sniffer to have a chance against them. They have simply solved MMA. Their style of chain wrestling / trip heavy takedowns are clearly optimal. They have smother top control that avoid submissions and prevents opponents from escaping. And if opponents do force a standup, they just take their back or sink in some other submission.

If I'm right, the only way to combat this style is to be a lifelong crotch sniffer. And that's not healthy nor is it acceptable for MMA.

 

[Pierced7681]

There were a few parts where I thought Islam should have at least started getting some warnings. Dude was just laying in half guard for way too long and throwing nothing but rabbit punches with a very infrequent threat of a sub attempt every now and then. Khabib was yelling smash so he should have postured up some and smashed.

Refs are instructed to only call a standup if you’re in closed guard and are refusing to improve your position or not throwing punches.

 

[SuperNerd]

Refs are instructed to only call a standup if you’re in closed guard and are refusing to improve your position or not throwing punches.

Not true.

I've seen stand-ups from mount, back control, side control ect.

 

[Pierced7681]

Not true.

I've seen stand-ups from mount, back control, ect.

Name me some, I can remember off the top of my head Roy Nelson getting stood up from side control against Arlovski and everyone being furious it happened

 

[SuperNerd]

Name me some, I can remember off the top of my head Roy Nelson getting stood up from side control against Arlovski and everyone being furious it happened

Pulled Maia off Usman's back, pulled Lashley off Griggs in full mount, that's off the top of my head

 

[Mike]

I'm not convinced you can "get better" when it comes to fighting off guys like Islam and Khamzat.

Maybe you are right, but IMO you need to be a lifelong crotch sniffer to have a chance against them. They have simply solved MMA. Their style of chain wrestling / trip heavy takedowns are clearly optimal. They have smother top control that avoid submissions and prevents opponents from escaping. And if opponents do force a standup, they just take their back or sink in some other submission.

If I'm right, the only way to combat this style is to be a lifelong crotch sniffer. And that's not healthy nor is it acceptable for MMA.

As others have said closing the gap in wrestling probably isnt possible, but they can definitely develop better TDD and a.better.bottom game. If an world champion can't get deep on a sweep attempt over 25 minutes I don't think there's a ruleset that can give them the win.

I want to see guys more active from the bottom. Lately it feels like the freaking 2005 meta where people just hold on from the bottom hoping for a standup. That isn't going to cut it anymore. The gap on the ground is so great these guys don't even really scramble or do anything but just accept defeat. I don't think rules changes can get them out of that, and even if they could I wouldn't like it.

 

[Pierced7681]

Pulled Maia off Usman's back, pulled Lashley off Griggs in full mount, that's off the top of my head

Don’t remember the Maia/Usman incident but the lashley/griggs one was awful and everyone was furious it happened

 

[xhaydenx]

Refs are instructed to only call a standup if you’re in closed guard and are refusing to improve your position or not throwing punches.

lol no. That's not what the rules say at all.

You can be stood up from any position. It doesn't have to be closed guard. There's been plenty of standups from all sorts of positions.

And the rules don't say anything about punches. They say you have to be actively trying to finish the fight "by any method"

 

[Alpha_T83]

As others have said closing the gap in wrestling probably isnt possible, but they can definitely develop better TDD and a.better.bottom game. If an world champion can't get deep on a sweep attempt over 25 minutes I don't think there's a ruleset that can give them the win.

I want to see guys more active from the bottom. Lately it feels like the freaking 2005 meta where people just hold on from the bottom hoping for a standup. That isn't going to cut it anymore. The gap on the ground is so great these guys don't even really scramble or do anything but just accept defeat. I don't think rules changes can get them out of that, and even if they could I wouldn't like it.

Yes the rules can change that easily.

First we have to acknowledge that one aspect of MMA shouldn't be able to control the whole sport at the top level. That one takedown shouldn't be leading to 3-4 minutes of control time with minimal offense. That after 30 seconds of guard being held with no damage, the fight should be stood up automatically. That if a fighter repeatedly goes for takedowns + control, with no offense, they get a yellow card and a point deduction.

That would COMPLETELY change MMA. Fighters would be able to actually use their BJJ and hold guard when taken down, and just wait for a standup. That in turn would mean a grappler would need probably 3-4 takedowns at least to win a round, coupled with actual damage (to avoid yellow cards). And just knowing that you won't automatically lose a decision based on control would give fighters morale boosts and more opportunities to throw wild haymakers and knees on the feet, leading to more knockouts like Masvidal vs Askren.

The threat of yellow cards would force guys like Makhachev to be much more aggressive on the ground, and being offensively aggressive on the ground creates opportunities for scrambles, which creates opportunities for a fighter to stand up or even reverse the position.

These rules would make MMA grappling actually entertaining.

 

[sdpdude9]

They can literally stand fighters up for stalling. Fighters get automatically stood up every round. The rules are already anti wrestling, what are we talking about?

 

[Mike]

Yes the rules can change that easily.

First we have to acknowledge that one aspect of MMA shouldn't be able to control the whole sport at the top level. That one takedown shouldn't be leading to 3-4 minutes of control time with minimal offense. That after 30 seconds of guard being held with no damage, the fight should be stood up automatically. That if a fighter repeatedly goes for takedowns + control, with no offense, they get a yellow card and a point deduction.

That would COMPLETELY change MMA. Fighters would be able to actually use their BJJ and hold guard when taken down, and just wait for a standup. That in turn would mean a grappler would need probably 3-4 takedowns at least to win a round, coupled with actual damage (to avoid yellow cards). And just knowing that you won't automatically lose a decision based on control would give fighters morale boosts and more opportunities to throw wild haymakers and knees on the feet, leading to more knockouts like Masvidal vs Askren.

The threat of yellow cards would force guys like Makhachev to be much more aggressive on the ground, and being offensively aggressive on the ground creates opportunities for scrambles, which creates opportunities for a fighter to stand up or even reverse the position.

These rules would make MMA grappling actually entertaining.

Once we get into yellow cards and stuff we're officially in fantasy land. Its a fine hypothetical but it won't happen anymore than soccer kicks or whatever.

The thing to me, is these fights are lopsided. To the point people are.just getting mat returns and whatnot. That's a level of skill disparity that you can't, and I would argue shouldn't even try to rules lawyer your way out of. So we do stand ups even more often, and they just take.the guy back down and continue to lay on him.

We saw that happen plenty in the past when they DID stand it up much more often. So even in this hypothetical where you're giving strikers even more standups they didn't earn, you're just gonna end up with guys like Merab averaging 25 takedowns a fight.

 

[joy2day]

The Nog vs Ricco decision in Pride was one way of dealing with that. Ricco hugged Nog on the ground while Nog repeatedly went for submissions, and they gave Nog the decision. I think that is fair.

I'm not into watching manhugging. I have long said they should give them more leverage to move the fight back to standing when it becomes just lying on the opponent doing intermittent, token pitter patter. Shit or get off the pot.

 

[Ramon Antonio]

They can literally stand fighters up for stalling. Fighters get automatically stood up every round. The rules are already anti wrestling, what are we talking about?

Wrestling starts standing up too at beginning of the round. How would that be anti-wrestling?

 

[Mike]

The Nog vs Ricco decision in Pride was one way of dealing with that. Ricco hugged Nog on the ground while Nog repeatedly went for submissions, and they gave Nog the decision. I think that is fair.

I'm not into watching manhugging. I have long said they should give them more leverage to move the fight back to standing when it becomes just lying on the opponent doing intermittent, token pitter patter. Shit or get off the pot.

Problem is the guys losing aren't constantly throwing up subs, or doing the active guard with elbows. Theyre just laying there taking it. Hard to find a way to twist it where the guy on the bottom content to sit there because he's too afraid to get up is somehow actually winning.

 

[Pierced7681]

lol no. That's not what the rules say at all.

You can be stood up from any position. It doesn't have to be closed guard. There's been plenty of standups from all sorts of positions.

And the rules don't say anything about punches. They say you have to be actively trying to finish the fight "by any method"

Throwing punches equals being active, you have to be active on the ground by passing guard, throwing punches, or attempting submissions. From top position in closed guard, there’s very few submissions you can attempt, so that leaves passing guard or throwing punches/elbows. It’s not rocket science. And yes, refs are instructed to not stand you up if you’ve achieved a dominant ground position. Half guard, side control, mount, back control, it is very rare for a fighter to be stood up from these positions because they are considered dominant.