Eugenics And The Billionaires Huge Investment In Living Forever

[panamaican]

Absolutely, I just don't see the children of of parents who decided to have children at all costs being as likely as the former generations to simply chose not to procreate. I think we see this effect in modern eastern cultures where having children is a far greater social and biological imperative despite far harsher conditions. I think the west will tend towards that.

So, why do you think that the fertility rate around the world is actually falling, emphasis on around the world, not just the west?

What is your explanation for the well-documented relationship between infant mortality rates and fertility rates?

Your applying social logic to individual traits. I just don't think this notion bares out. I know of no animal that doesn't continue to increase its population so long as that is legitimately possible even when there is a dramatic cost in opportunity/resources. Look at India and China, both countries are extremely poor and its largely because of the overpopulation but it still hasn't stopped either.

Don't take this the wrong way but you're not making any sense. India and China have seen decreasing fertility rates. That's reality. I explained why population decline is going to lag decreased fertility rates.

You haven't addressed those points. No one said that poverty leads to decreased population. The data is pretty clear that it's not that important. Infant mortality rates, not economic outcomes.

And India and China aren't poor because of overpopulation. They're poor because they're underdeveloped in terms of education and infrastructure coupled with largely immobile social strata and lots of corruption.

 

[Awesomesauce]

I dont think that. There are machines smarter than me now. They work differently than a person though. Maybe I am just having a hard time explaining exactly how factory style automation works. You would need something capable of truly thinking, not just a troubleshooting program. I have used them, they can be helpful, but things can break in unexpected ways.

I am talking about a machine that can read a blueprint, diagnose problems and create and implement plans for repairs. We already have them, they are just extremely expensive.

That and as I pointed out, you need something that CANNOT be fried by power fluctuations. All the repair robots in the world cant help you when your processors fry, or your wireless network goes out. You need something that doesnt plug in, and has thought totally independent of the rest of the system. You need a person.

Why? Automatons tend to be far more resilient then humans when it comes to dealing with damage even power fluctuations?

Perhaps looking at it from a different angle. What specific job do you think you could do that an independent repair focused automation couldn't accomplish?

Feel free to get as technical as you wish, I am well educated on the subject.

 

[IDL]

The whole zeitgeist in popular culture that humans are the problem, or that "overpopulation" (whatever that means) is a problem, is strongly rooted in that old and discredited Malthusian canard. This is also reinforced in various ways of predictive programming by subliminally implanting into the mass consciousness that humans are the cancer that 'need to be controlled' (e.g., see The Matrix where Agent Smith, the antagonist, tells Morpheus, that humans are a disease, and consume everything in their environment, like a virus). You also see this immortalized in the current obsession with the deification of animal life above human life (e.g., see the public outrage over Cecil the Lion, but no public outrage over the hundreds of thousands of humans killed by Western policies). Again, media manipulation of peoples' perceived reality.

Yes, you and I are both aware that it is already in full swing.

 

[Bumble_Bee_Tuna]

Yes, you and I are both aware that it is already in full swing.

 

[7437]

I am talking about a machine that can read a blueprint, diagnose problems and create and implement plans for repairs. We already have them, they are just extremely expensive.



Why? Automatons tend to be far more resilient then humans when it comes to dealing with damage even power fluctuations?

Perhaps looking at it from a different angle. What specific job do you think you could do that an independent repair focused automation couldn't accomplish?

Feel free to get as technical as you wish, I am well educated on the subject.

ok, we will go with something simple. Air operated valve coming off of a solenoid doesnt open. Getting a failure ot open alarm isnt hard, we see that now with just a proximity switch and a flag. Figuring out why could be more difficult, ridiculously expensive, and complicated. Maybe it did open, and your prox is bad. only way to check that is to go look at the damn thing to see where the flag is at, the automated way to "see" it can be damaged. The power to the prox could be tripped out. Theoretically you could have extra inputs coming off of every power source, but that would get outlandishly complex really fast. A wire on the terminal strip that feed the proxes in that system could be loose. No real way to check for that other than putting fingers on wires. If it comes back on a relay, it may be not firing or loose. I guess you could have inputs coming back on both sides of the relay to tell you if it fired, but again the system would be massive, for basically no reason. Your solenoid wiring could go bad. Your coil that fires the solenoid could be bad. The normal way to check that would be to stick a screwdriver in the coil to see if it is magnetized. The physical solenoid could be stuck, they get buildup sometimes. The rings in the solenoid could be blown. You might not have enough air pressure on the system to actuate the valve. Your air line going to the physical valve could be damaged and leaking pressure. The physical actuator generally has a gear on it that turns the valve, the teeth could be worn out ( this likely wouldnt throw a failure to open fault, as the flags are almost always on the actuator).

That is just off the top of my head what could go wrong with an air operated valve. You start talking about an actually complicated system like a variable frequency drive and it gets much worse, much quicker. Its not that awesome programs cant be written, there are physical limitations to how they can get inputs back from the system.

 

[IDL]

Spoiler

You know, I can't think of any realistic scenarios where a militarized police state is not in our future, especially considering we can see it forming already. It is one of those things where it is a natural counter to the upcoming instability.

So along those lines, that industry would provide good job security :icon_lol:

 

[7437]

You know, I can't think of any realistic scenarios where a militarized police state is not in our future, especially considering we can see it forming already. It is one of those things where it is a natural counter to the upcoming instability.

So along those lines, that industry would provide good job security :icon_lol:

 

[IDL]

Perhaps looking at it from a different angle. What specific job do you think you could do that an independent repair focused automation couldn't accomplish?

What about a simple auto mechanic? It seems to me that what humans excel at is versatility.

So the driverless car breaks down, and the driverless tow truck picks it up and brings it in for repair. Do we have anything close to being able to perform all types of mechanical repair on a car?

 

[IDL]

Spoiler

haha yeah people are complaining about cops now. Just try to reason with one of those!

 

[7437]

haha yeah people are complaining about cops now. Just try to reason with one of those!

Seems like cops

 

[Bumble_Bee_Tuna]

Seems like cops

No one going to popularize #CEOLivesMatter?

 

[Bumble_Bee_Tuna]

I had to kill Bob Morton because he made a mistake. Now it's time to erase that mistake.

 

[Awesomesauce]

So, why do you think that the fertility rate around the world is actually falling, emphasis on around the world, not just the west?

What is your explanation for the well-documented relationship between infant mortality rates and fertility rates?

I don't doubt that the relationship exists, I just don't think its a cause-effect relationship. I think its a side effect of affluence and practical personal interest.

Don't take this the wrong way but you're not making any sense. India and China have seen decreasing fertility rates. That's reality. I explained why population decline is going to lag decreased fertility rates.

Never have to worry about offending me. I don't take offense in discussions. Your generally a very rational poster and even if it sometimes doesn't seem like it, I respect you for that. India and China have falling fertility rates as a practical matter. They are reaching a saturation point population wise. India specifically, while the Chinese government has worked hard to enact policies that will control population growth. I think the Chinese government came to the conclusion a long time ago that a massive population was more a weakness then a strength which is a very new phenomena in international relations.

Having said that, while the fertility rate in both countries is falling, they are still above replacement level and are expected to remain so for some time. China's population growth has been reported as below replacement level for years yet years later and despite serious emigration, China's population has grown. I think its fair to say official numbers in China are dramatically under-reported.

You haven't addressed those points. No one said that poverty leads to decreased population. The data is pretty clear that it's not that important. Infant mortality rates, not economic outcomes.

I think culture plays the largest roll in determining fertility rates. Much of that culture I believe to be driven by genetics. I think that most countries go through transition periods where population growth may level out but after a period darwinisticly driven selection the new modified pool of people will move forward and continue with growth.

And India and China aren't poor because of overpopulation. They're poor because they're underdeveloped in terms of education and infrastructure coupled with largely immobile social strata and lots of corruption.

India and China suffer as nations, as do the individual citizens by the relative resource poverty compared to their population. Both nations struggle massively with jobs and with providing even basic infrastructure for their populations. Regardless of any other factor there simply isn't enough land or resources to provide a high baseline for standard of living in either country.

Education can't fix either nations problems, at all. The Soviet Union tried the exact same thing. Free education and a promise of a better life. All they wound up with was the exact same thing the US is experiencing right now, a huge collection of massively overqualified ditch diggers.

The problem is that everyone is looking for a solution within the framework that exists. But the framework that exists is the problem as the circumstances that make it function no longer exist.

 

[Awesomesauce]

ok, we will go with something simple. Air operated valve coming off of a solenoid doesnt open. Getting a failure ot open alarm isnt hard, we see that now with just a proximity switch and a flag. Figuring out why could be more difficult, ridiculously expensive, and complicated. Maybe it did open, and your prox is bad. only way to check that is to go look at the damn thing to see where the flag is at, the automated way to "see" it can be damaged. The power to the prox could be tripped out. Theoretically you could have extra inputs coming off of every power source, but that would get outlandishly complex really fast. A wire on the terminal strip that feed the proxes in that system could be loose. No real way to check for that other than putting fingers on wires. If it comes back on a relay, it may be not firing or loose. I guess you could have inputs coming back on both sides of the relay to tell you if it fired, but again the system would be massive, for basically no reason. Your solenoid wiring could go bad. Your coil that fires the solenoid could be bad. The normal way to check that would be to stick a screwdriver in the coil to see if it is magnetized. The physical solenoid could be stuck, they get buildup sometimes. The rings in the solenoid could be blown. You might not have enough air pressure on the system to actuate the valve. Your air line going to the physical valve could be damaged and leaking pressure. The physical actuator generally has a gear on it that turns the valve, the teeth could be worn out ( this likely wouldnt throw a failure to open fault, as the flags are almost always on the actuator).

That is just off the top of my head what could go wrong with an air operated valve. You start talking about an actually complicated system like a variable frequency drive and it gets much worse, much quicker. Its not that awesome programs cant be written, there are physical limitations to how they can get inputs back from the system.

This wasn't exactly what I meant but I think it could still be useful. What step do you think would cause an automation problems? Is it just sensory input? Because machines have FAR superior senses to humans, they can have a multitude of practical sensor types. What about a human shaped robot? What would be the limitation on a human shaped robot when it encounters a problem like this?

I don't even think you would need to go as far as creating an AI for something like this, if expert systems can be created for medical work I don't see why you would need a genetic system or a neural network for something like this although that may eventually simply be the cheaper and better option even if wholesale cloud transfer isn't practical and each unit has to be trained. They could certainly learn faster then any human, and these machines would have better functionality then any human can dream of.

In the end I am just not seeing a part of what you described that an expert system couldn't breeze through in a fraction of the time a human could.

 

[Awesomesauce]

What about a simple auto mechanic? It seems to me that what humans excel at is versatility.

So the driverless car breaks down, and the driverless tow truck picks it up and brings it in for repair. Do we have anything close to being able to perform all types of mechanical repair on a car?

Yes, a simple auto mechanic could be pretty easily replaced with an automated system. It probably wouldn't be cost effective currently but it could be done.

Everyone seems to believe that all machines must be programmed for a single purpose. A humanoid automation could be programmed to do a hundred different jobs. If anything versatility is on the side of the machines.

 

[Strychnine]

I just heard someone talk about this and Silicon Valley Billionaires are investing huge sums "Many billions" into living forever or for hundreds of years more. Its kinda scary because this guy who I was hearing also believes that they want to reduce the world wide population.


EDIT: I am actually surprised not more people are freaked out about this stuff.

This is almost the storyline for Tom Clancy's: Rainbow Six

 

[Awesomesauce]

The whole zeitgeist in popular culture that humans are the problem, or that "overpopulation" (whatever that means) is a problem, is strongly rooted in that old and discredited Malthusian canard. This is also reinforced in various ways of predictive programming by subliminally implanting into the mass consciousness that humans are the cancer that 'need to be controlled' (e.g., see The Matrix where Agent Smith, the antagonist, tells Morpheus, that humans are a disease, and consume everything in their environment, like a virus). You also see this immortalized in the current obsession with the deification of animal life above human life (e.g., see the public outrage over Cecil the Lion, but no public outrage over the hundreds of thousands of humans killed by Western policies). Again, media manipulation of peoples' perceived reality.

I disagree. Regardless of what type of resource you want to chose as the limiting factor, There is a functional limit. Food, fuel, pollution, loss of bio diversity, etc... Overpopulation has a plethora is issues directly related to it. That's not to say we won't adjust because that's what we do not just as a species but as life in general. But life as we know it could very well be decimated.

Your right that animals are chosen above people, but your wrong as to the reason. Humans are the enemy of Humans. Animals no longer limit the ability of Humans to progress individually. Its easy to love something that isn't a threat. Animals are the lovable losers of the modern world. We see evidence of this in the dramatic rise in psychopathy and various forms of autism. these aren't just medical issues they are adaptions. Being able to ignore the suffering of others is an important tool in a world where you are far more put at odds with others then you are put in a position to find common cause.

There are also two other factors which cause the dramatic sympathy for animals we see today, particularly in the west. The only exposure to animals we get is generally the cute, cuddly and non offensive kind.

 

[SouthoftheAndes]

You know, I can't think of any realistic scenarios where a militarized police state is not in our future, especially considering we can see it forming already. It is one of those things where it is a natural counter to the upcoming instability.

So along those lines, that industry would provide good job security :icon_lol:

Except in that movie 'Children of men' The British Government rounded up immigrants.

Same thing in the movie V For Vendetta. The totalitarian government that emerged discouraged race mixing, gayness, and rounded up the Muslims/immigrants, but you see those films were written by leftists and the current day British government since Tony Blair took office has ENCOURAGED immigration.

So while the possibility exists to hypothetically round up those groups following some order out of chaos thing. I must say the current British policy seems more focused on elevating Islam and immigrants over the majority. I think any hypothetical totalitarian system emerging in Britain would something by the EU not by a single British party.

What about a simple auto mechanic? It seems to me that what humans excel at is versatility.

So the driverless car breaks down, and the driverless tow truck picks it up and brings it in for repair. Do we have anything close to being able to perform all types of mechanical repair on a car?

I agree. And f#ck artificial intelligence

I've seen the Matrix and Terminator I know what will happen. Id rather get conquered by aliens than get conquered by the very things WE created.

 

[SummerStriker]

I hope the designer plague the Plutocracy wipes us out with is painless.