End all GOAT Discussion

BowserJr said:
The only way to settle who is the p4p GOAT is to define what is meant by p4p GOAT. There are generally 4 school of thought. I'll name the top 3 for each one

A. Absolute PEAK undefeatability/skill
B. Best accolades/record
C. Best fighter
D. Best competitor

A.
1. Fedor
2. Jones
3. Silva

B.
1. Jones
2. GSP
3. Silva

C.
1. Fedor
2. Silva
3. BJ Penn

D.
1. Jones
2. GSP
3. Silva

It really comes down to which one outweigh more. To me Fighter and Undefeatability are the 2 most important. Clearly to many Sherbros Record and competitor are more important.

A few things to note
  • I don't count Flyweight cuz its too shallow and they're just too small.
  • Fighter refers to having budo and fighting to see who is the best at fighting rather than who's the best at the sport of MMA
  • Competitor refers to competing in MMA to see who is the best at the sport which also means gaming the rules, judging and structure
  • In case you didn't know Silva was ranked #1 at WW and of course MW and top 3 at LHW. That's why I put him in the record/accolades section over undefeated khabib. Sorry Khabib fans top 3 in 3 weightclasses and #1 in 2 is more impressive than undefeated with only a handful of big wins
  • Losses at the end of a career doesnt mean much. If it did Muhammad Ali would not be consensus boxing GOAT over guys like Lennox Lewis or Riddick Bowe
My overall pick is Fedor because again I weigh fighter much higher than competitor and losses at the end when they shouldn't be fighting dont weigh much
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I like this way of parsing it out but what do we mean by best competitor? When I see that I think of things like will to win and the grit to pull through difficult fights but I also would kind of count the degree to which a fighter is a consummate professional and the degree to which the prepare for a fight. I don’t see Jones fitting that criteria so I’m guessing your definition is a little different than mine.

Edit: Personally I would have Jones at the top of A B and C but not even on the map for D.
 
HavokHarmon said:
I like this way of parsing it out but what do we mean by best competitor? When I see that I think of things like will to win and the grit to pull through difficult fights but I also would kind of count the degree to which a fighter is a consummate professional and the degree to which the prepare for a fight. I don’t see Jones fitting that criteria so I’m guessing your definition is a little different than mine.
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Good question!

What I mean is ability to win at the sport of MMA rather than ability to win fights.

For example Jones refused to fight Sonnen so he could strategize even though Sonnen is one dimensional , undersized and tale end of career.

Fighters (compared to mma athletes) do tournaments fight whoever within reason or just whoever, in order to test themselves at fighting(ie. Hunt v Wand, BJ v Machida). Jones simply doesn't embody the ethos of fighting. He'd never do a tournament and cherry picks

The version you're talking about I call the ethos of martial arts.

That's a 5 category I posted in my reply to the first comment.
 
TR1 said:
Retarded post.

I'll repost this again everytime this moronic argument comes up:

Cain and JDS were basically done as top guys right after they turned 30 lol.
Brock ran away from the sport in his early 30s with barely any fights.

All 3 with FAR less fight mileage than CC.

UFC HW Champs:
Rizzo: Never had a top win after 2005/06. Done by age 33.
Ricco: Done fighting at top level in 2003. Hung on for a few years losing to anyone relevant. Totally done by age ~33.
Mir: Last time he was at all relevant and had top wins was in 2012. 33 years of age.
Randleman: Last top win at age 32.
Arlovski: Left the UFC and got brutally "exposed". Done as a top guy by 2011 at age ~31.
Sylvia: Done as a top guy after 2008, at age 32.
Bork: Last win at age 33.
JDS: Basically done as a top guy by age 31, in 2015. Clearly washed by 2017, at age 33. Hobbled on vs mostly irrelevant guys after.
Cain: Done after 2013, at age 31. Hardly fought after period.

Wow, look @ all these UFC champs who somehow either washed out, started "sucking", or clearly were past it in their early 30s!
You could say the same of quite a few PRIDE HW fighters as well, to be fair.

HW MMA has failed to attract enough new, young talent since the 2000s, and this became very evident post 2010 as the average age of the division started creeping up. Hint, that is not a sign it got better.

Also- Fedor lost to top guys who were all on PEDs.
Apparently its better to get your ass beat in the middle of your career by Matt Serra or Takase than to top fighters at the end lmao.
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Fucking thank you!
 
TR1 said:
Wow, you are stupid as shit.

I didn't list "a few". I listed almost every major HW champ of the 2000s and early 2010s. I could make the list bigger by listing non UFC guys, and non champs as well.

So yes, Fedor was relevant for as long as his contemporaries- in fact, longer, since most did not have a 30 fight win streak before they fell off.

"Two average fighters and 185lber"?

Uh no retard. Werdum is an ATG HW and a UFC champ. BF was a top 10 HW staple for years. And Hendo was a top LHW at the time.....and Fedor was a LHW sized fighter anyways. All 3 juiced as well, while there is no evidence Fedor did.
Absolutely nothing bad about losing to such competition after the best streak in the history of the sport. I don't give two fucks what the average age of a UFC champ today is, as it has zero bearing on Fedor's era.
Are you suggesting because Randy was a champ in his late age, his record is somehow better than Fedors? That's asinine.
What age was GSP again when he tapped to strikes to a LW? Can't be a GOAT contender based on that alone! Won't even talk about Anderson if thats the criteria lmao.

You are not arguing in good faith, or you are retarded. I wonder which.
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Don't even try. The guy is a lost cause who probably thinks days as champ is the most important measure while ignoring activity
 
BowserJr said:
Good question!

What I mean is ability to win at the sport of MMA rather than ability to win fights.

For example Jones refused to fight Sonnen so he could strategize even though Sonnen is one dimensional , undersized and tale end of career.

Fighters (compared to mma athletes) do tournaments fight whoever within reason or just whoever, in order to test themselves at fighting(ie. Hunt v Wand, BJ v Machida). Jones simply doesn't embody the ethos of fighting. He'd never do a tournament and cherry picks

The version you're talking about I call the ethos of martial arts.

That's a 5 category I posted in my reply to the first comment.
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I think I see what you’re saying, like how Mayweather always negotiated for the largest possible ring to support his defensive style.

Even still though, I feel like there are examples of Jones doing a very poor job of this. Rumor at least was that he basically didn’t train for the first fight with Gus, and his failed out of competition test for coke before his first fight with DC seems to suggest he didn’t exactly take that fight as seriously as he could have. Granted it worked out for him, but I feel like his actual fight preparation has at times been questionable at best.
 
fedorthegoat777 said:
So Fedors prime was when he lost a bunch of times, at the end of his career after going undefeated for 10 years? got it.

You can rate gsp as #1, no harm in that, he was a great fighter, can't disagree with your opinion.

No reason to make up stupid shit though.

Would you consider Anderson Silvas, Muhammad Alis, Mike Tysons, and BJ Penns prime also at the end of their careers also when they started losing?
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Fedor fought for 12 more years after this string of defeats. Yes, he was past his prime in his last 6 -7 fights but he was in his absolute prime when he got smashed 3 consecutive times.
 
Maybe because mma is 10mins old and boxing has been around forever, but boxing fans aren't even close to being this obsessed with goat

Oleksandr Usyk fights on the road and has won the majority fights in opponents backyards or neutral territory

I don't class him as the boxing goat, but he's head and shoulders above what I'm seeing in mma. The guy will take on whoever, whenever and is 38 in a week or 2
 
P4P is a marketing ploy to get people to watch midgets fighting. It’s frankly ridiculous.
 
MMAJunkie said:
Or the fact that his corner used to call the athletic commission to find out what steriods they were testing for.
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People forget about that little gem. He literally wanted to know what they were testing for. But these anti Jones bitches claim he was clean every bout.
 
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