Effectiveness of BJJ in Judo?

[Senshi]

this thread has been extemely helpful for me. i'll be starting judo next week after having 3 years of BJJ under my belt. i think its going to be great to learn more takedowns and i'll feel comfortable for when we do ne-waza. i am going to be learning it in japan and it may be a little different than some of your experiences but i may start a thread about people who trained judo in japan as foreigners.

i'm so freaking excited!!!

 

[CyberFreq]

Not gonna lie: I came into this thread expecting about 9 people talking about the BJ Penn vid.

 

[athletic]

I have four years of bjj and began training cross training judo at the beginning of the year. Aside from the obvious benefits to newaza bjj has helped me progress relatively quickly in judo because:

Grips: The ability to grip properly in bjj will help you grip in judo, however, grip fighting in judo is much tougher than bjj.

Balance: If you have a decent top game you will have the ability to maintain your balance when Tori attempts to throw you because of your ability to posture.

Gi: You will have know how the gi can control your body and movements, if you've never training in the gi before it can be quite a shock.

I also believe that Judo is so beneficial to your bjj.

Top: If develop the ability to avoid throws due to technique, balance, posture, you'll find that your ability to avoid bjj sweeps will improve.

Pressure: If you've had a godd judo guy pin you it can be extremely hard to escape, combine this ability with bjj's submission ability and you'll develop an excellent top game.

Also, the revese of the some of the earlier points - improved grip strength and balance. Plus even if you have intermediate skills, the average bjj guy will really struggle to throw you.

 

[Rod1]

For competitions of Shiai, there is little you can learn in BJJ that you won't learn in Judo, your friend would make a good sparring partner.

For Judo as a whole, its great to learn BJJ, it allows you to learn Judo as a whole, newaza is also judo and you had ranks as high as 9th dan vying for as much as 50-50 split on tachi and ne waza.

I had the great luck of having a monster in the ground Judo teacher, i grew up thinking that BJJ was a watered form of Judo because they only trained that aspect and i didn't thought they really had anything new, until my sensei left town and i trained under a cuban coach that was brought in his place, i was tapping people who were competing at national college level and were ranked 2nd in national level (That's in Mexico, not very good judo anyway) so i was kind of dissappointed.

But then i went to BJJ dojo and i found something that resembled the newaza of my old sensei, however i don't like BJJ lack of emphasis in top control, they have great guards sure, but their top games were not as good as mine. I even had the BB ask me if i did wrestling because i easily had the best top control in class (didn't prevented the BBs from subbing me from the guard though).

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I did a bit of BJJ and I am able to sub brown belts and black belts in judo because of that.

I couldn't sub a BJJ blue.

BJJ will hugely help you on the ground.

 

[radman]

Flavio Canto uses his BJj training to help him win Judo matches. Irony, Travis Stevens has trained with Dave Camarillo in the past to prepare for fights with Canto.:icon_chee

 

[unhommefou]

Flavio Canto uses his BJj training to help him win Judo matches. Irony, Travis Stevens has trained with Dave Camarillo in the past to prepare for fights with Canto.:icon_chee

Pardon my ignorance, but I thought that Flavio Canto was an "Honorary" black belt in BJJ.

If he is truly a black belt in BJJ (which I would not doubt) then does anybody know what his lineage is?

 

[DSGhST07]

Pardon my ignorance, but I thought that Flavio Canto was an "Honorary" black belt in BJJ.

If he is truly a black belt in BJJ (which I would not doubt) then does anybody know what his lineage is?

It's not your ignorance it's his. Flavio Canto is a Judoka, and had the same style ever since he was young and was competing he was using sacrifice throws and submitting people. His sensei's were very good on the ground so thats where he picked it up from. He occasionally trains with BJJ GUYS, but that does not make him TRAIN IN BJJ. If a BJJ guy rolls with a Judo guy occasionally, does that make him train judo now? No. It makes him try to better himself. :icon_neut

 

[Rod1]

Flavio Canto uses his BJj training to help him win Judo matches. Irony, Travis Stevens has trained with Dave Camarillo in the past to prepare for fights with Canto.:icon_chee

No, Canto is a student of Kastriot Mehdi who himself trained with Masahiko Kimura in Japan, he was also judo coach to many BJJ greats like Rickson.

Canto is a judo guy from a strong newaza lineage, Mehdi is the kind of guy that frowns equally BJJ neglect of tachiwaza and modern judo neglect of newaza. He is an all around judoka who produces monster competitors.

 

[Auspex]

I hadn't seen that match before. I liked the refeeing...Let Canto attack and move and grind a bit.

Good match!

 

[fourfif**]

I'm surprised people still think Canto is a BJJ guy.

Judoka, through and through.

 

[Falsedawn]

Ok, another good night of practice, and more questions.

-If im using a standard Seoi Nage, am I allowed to grab the opponent's sleeve on the arm that I wrap around? Im finding that it's harder to complete the throw if im not grabbing.

-What's the difference between a Seoi nage and an Ippon Seoi nage? My sensei taught them different, but I saw no difference.

-Lastly, what is it with everyone being susceptible to trips? I just got a standard collar-sleeve grip and all of a sudden im tripping everyone. It was even bad enough that I got an ippon on the brown belt in our class because he tried to stand on his remaining leg (I had the other hooked on the trip) and I pretty much bullrushed him into the ippon. I know that im 6'4", but is there something that im missing? I don't mean to sound cocky at all, but it seems far too easy than it should be.

On a positive note, the little bit of wrestling that I did worked wonders. I actually managed to sprawl out of a Seoi nage, get my arm loose, and work my opponent with a D'arce choke for the finish. We have a tournament coming up soon, so im hoping to go to that and get some good work in. It should be illegal how addictive martial arts are, I literally can't get enough of it.

 

[Groundfighter75]

Ok, another good night of practice, and more questions.

-If im using a standard Seoi Nage, am I allowed to grab the opponent's sleeve on the arm that I wrap around? Im finding that it's harder to complete the throw if im not grabbing.

-What's the difference between a Seoi nage and an Ippon Seoi nage? My sensei taught them different, but I saw no difference.

-Lastly, what is it with everyone being susceptible to trips? I just got a standard collar-sleeve grip and all of a sudden im tripping everyone. It was even bad enough that I got an ippon on the brown belt in our class because he tried to stand on his remaining leg (I had the other hooked on the trip) and I pretty much bullrushed him into the ippon. I know that im 6'4", but is there something that im missing? I don't mean to sound cocky at all, but it seems far too easy than it should be.

On a positive note, the little bit of wrestling that I did worked wonders. I actually managed to sprawl out of a Seoi nage, get my arm loose, and work my opponent with a D'arce choke for the finish. We have a tournament coming up soon, so im hoping to go to that and get some good work in. It should be illegal how addictive martial arts are, I literally can't get enough of it.

It must be different in the US for BJJ to be effective against Judo players. In the UK, we can't just jump up and pull guard the way it seems you can in some US clubs.

Does the throw he's teaching look like this? YouTube - Judo: Seoi-nage (Tori: Pedro, Uke: Tadeu)

As for sweeping and tripping, there's good players who are brown belts and bad players who are brown belts. Same as in any MA or sport. I've beaten many Judo players in newaza who are Dan grades and I've been tooled badly by some. Depends on the player.

 

[Falsedawn]

It must be different in the US for BJJ to be effective against Judo players. In the UK, we can't just jump up and pull guard the way it seems you can in some US clubs.

Does the throw he's teaching look like this? YouTube - Judo: Seoi-nage (Tori: Pedro, Uke: Tadeu)

As for sweeping and tripping, there's good players who are brown belts and bad players who are brown belts. Same as in any MA or sport. I've beaten many Judo players in newaza who are Dan grades and I've been tooled badly by some. Depends on the player.

No, it's definitely this one


I don't know if the grips are just different, but I can definitely see that the mechanics of the throw are the same.

 

[DSGhST07]

Ok, another good night of practice, and more questions.

-If im using a standard Seoi Nage, am I allowed to grab the opponent's sleeve on the arm that I wrap around? Im finding that it's harder to complete the throw if im not grabbing.

-What's the difference between a Seoi nage and an Ippon Seoi nage? My sensei taught them different, but I saw no difference.

-Lastly, what is it with everyone being susceptible to trips? I just got a standard collar-sleeve grip and all of a sudden im tripping everyone. It was even bad enough that I got an ippon on the brown belt in our class because he tried to stand on his remaining leg (I had the other hooked on the trip) and I pretty much bullrushed him into the ippon. I know that im 6'4", but is there something that im missing? I don't mean to sound cocky at all, but it seems far too easy than it should be.

On a positive note, the little bit of wrestling that I did worked wonders. I actually managed to sprawl out of a Seoi nage, get my arm loose, and work my opponent with a D'arce choke for the finish. We have a tournament coming up soon, so im hoping to go to that and get some good work in. It should be illegal how addictive martial arts are, I literally can't get enough of it.

Seoi Nage, which is now refered to as Morote Seoi Nage, Morote means using 2, as in both hands remain on the gi when you throw. Ippon Seoi Nage, Ippon means 1, only one hand remains on the gi (the pulling hand), the other comes off and makes a bicep flex motion under his arm. Both the same concept, but the gripping makes them slightly different throws.

Also, being 6'4 does help a lot. If the guys aren't great, you can stick your long legs behind them and Osoto them all day. A guy came to my gym around 6'4 and did that, gave us hell and eventually messed up my knee by doing a throw he didn't know how to do (ashi guruma).

P.S. I tried to Darce my opponent in my last judo comp, and he got right back up and it was matte. It's not like BJJ where the goal is to escape/recover guard, in judo they try to just stand and thats it. I would try for hold downs in your 1st comps, then when your comfortable in the fast pace environment, start working for subs.

 

[Groundfighter75]

No, it's definitely this one


I don't know if the grips are just different, but I can definitely see that the mechanics of the throw are the same.

The one I posted is a morote seoi nage, with a traditional grip. Most judo throws differ massively between clubs and federations, between traditional judo kwais or contest orientated judo clubs.

 

[Carrera26]

I can't the embedded video at work, but all Seoi Nage means is "Shoulder Throw". There are the 2 major flavors;

Ippon - 1 grip
Morote - 2 grip

But of course there are about a million variations from there. Myself, I prefer lapel-side ippon. (One grip seoi, but on the lapel insead of sleeve) You know how people say that BJJ is the most complex martial art in the world because of all the variations? Well Judo is just as complex with the throwing variations. Learn the Kata (standard) variations first and really try to understand them and their concepts before you start trying a bunch of wacky different kinds. You didn't way you were, but it's an easy trap for an enthusiastic new Judoka to fall into.

You do "grip" the arm you turn into on Ippon, but not with your hand. You pinch it between your forearm and bicep.

There is a very real reason for this, as it puts your torso and shoulder in tight contact with their body and give you FAR better power and control for the throw. That's the Shoulder in Shoulder throw... it's your shoulder, not theirs. If you can get them tight to your shoulder and draw it down in an arc towards the opposite foot (IE left shoulder to right foot) you'll be amazed at how ridiculously easy the throw goes. Try to to it all with your hands and arms though and Uke will feel like he just gained 150lbs.

 

[TrevorRoss]

I'm hearing a little Judo bashing here. My instructor is a Judo/Sambo BB (no belts in Sport Sambo, he's from Russia), and....a BJJ BB! So to the BJJ white belt here saying he was tapping Judo BBs with ease, you wouldn't be able to do that at my school. Stand-up and ground work are of equal importance.

 

[Auspex]

I do think it's odd that a blue belt should be able to tap a Judo bb with ease.

Makes me a bit mad at the Judoka for ignoring his ground game....eh, it happens.

I don't think this is the norm. I certainly think a skilled blue belt has the tools to beat a Judoka on the ground, but it definitely shouldn't happen often.

 

[mikecello]

I never worked the guard anywhere near as much in Judo as I do in BJJ.