Educate me please; how does judo stack up against bjj?

Though I have great pride in my newaza I've rolled with a few jiu jitsu guys (not that high level) I can hold my own for the most part, but the good ones (usually purple belt or above) are REALLY good.

The sad thing is how the rules keep changing in Judo. Soon your average BJJ'er will be able to take down the elite Judoka with basic wrestling techniques.
 
...and there are those who cross train under the radar and are too proud to admit that they learn x y z technique from the other art not giving it any credit.
 
RJ Green said:
Standing, the judo guy should have the advantage of being able to take the bjj guy to the mat at will. It depends from there. If the bjj guy remains relatively unscathed it comes down to what position he landed in. Judo guys smother and stay tight, and the subs come fast. They keep base really well. Guard gets problematic, and comes down to whether the judo guy treats groundwork as an opportunity or a nuisance. If judo guy gets swept or gets his back taken, its probably over. Bjj guy is patient, methodical, and sure as hell doesn't want to stand back up.

Its fair to assume judo guy throws better and bjj guy is more crafty on the ground, so it's the transition between those two where the magic happens, and what makes or breaks it for either guy.

But it really comes down to the player. A lot of bjj guys cross train and have top heavy games, and a lot of judo guys have vicious ground games. There's also the leg lock factor, which judo guy won't know shit about unless he cross trains.

Bjj rage will tell you bjj wins because it's the coolest, because he like totally tapped a two stripe white belt who said he was a judo black belt one time.
Some of the judo guys will be too proud to admit the bjj guy has a better shot on the groun, then something about how it depends of the match is on concrete or igneous rock or aids needles or what's ever.
The wrestlers will be butthurt they aren't included in the conversation, and tell you you're a pussy and dont do enough conditioning and that they're hungry.
Oleg ratkawhatever will be in here to tell you sambo is the best, and even though you can count the number of american sambo gyms on one hand, you should train sambo because he trains sambo and that's pretty much all he ever posts

then the next ten or so pages are gonna be some version of 'nuhuh' and 'yuhuh' and bullshit irrelevant highlight videos and a few white/orange belts repeating almost verbatim everything weve already said ad nauseum, a few people will reply with such flagrant disregard for english youll simultaneously wonder how they manage to run a computer and lose all faith in western education, Richard will post something real creepy, someone shills some upcoming seminar or fucking DVD and then I'll be an ass and post a meme or esoteric pop culture reference because im am ass and then one of the 10th planet guys will say blah blah rubber guard and then we'll hear even more anecdotes about one time during practice from some random ass three stripe white belts.

And then finally everyone will agree that both dudes should have just cross trained in each art and that's always the best way. Except Oleg, who will still insist sambo is superior because mother Russia.

And its all the same fucking thing.
Click to expand...

Genius!
 
The BJJ ruleset rewards points for reaching different positions & getting the submission wins you the match. As a result you have athletes who are great at transitioning between positions whilst progressing towards a submission.

Judo rules create athletes that are great at controlling positions. (because pinning an opponent from side control, north/south & mount etc for 25 seconds will win you the match). Which is great, and really does help develop a suffocating top game. The problem with judo newaza is that the ruleset means that athletes would rather control their opponent in a fixed position than transitions and progress towards the submission.

And another problem judoka have on the ground is that because the fight is stood up so quickly, athletes will go purely defensive & stall for the 10 seconds it takes to get stood up by the ref. This is a problem when they fight BJJ athletes because BJJ athletes are offensive & pro-active off their back which is something Judoka are not used to dealing with. Sure, it happens. They'll train against some judoka who are offensive off their back but most are not top tier BJJ black belt quality.

Additionally, judo submissions come mostly as a follow up from feints or failed throwing attempts.



There are exceptions to the norm.
aka. flavio canto, kashiwazaki.






At the highest level they all cross train to different extents anyway.
 
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I'm an average purple belt, last year I rolled with a high level judo guy about my size.
He was super explosive and started out great, great defense but toward the end of the roll I think I may ahve caught him, or at least I managed to get ahead of him.
The thing is it was very competitive, if we were standing randori I would have been destroyed in less than a minute.
 
As a Judo guy mainly I find the groundwork skill level is different but also not directly comparable. On average of course the Judo guy will lose but that is also because Judo clubs in the US tend to be recreational (2x a week and such). Higher level clubs would produce tough ground players but still different. Judo will develop different skills at different times, so it's not really accurate to say a Judo BB is a white, blue, or purple BJJ belt.

It's somewhere between the skills of a wrestler and BJJ guy. The judoka will have good positioning and defense, and push the pace, but won't have as many ways to submit. They also won't be familiar with many positions, like DLR or footlocks. The video of Jimmy vs Marcelo is a good illustration. Both are top notch in their sport.

As Lloyd Irvin says, a martial art is good for what it was made for. If you want to be a submission wiz, do BJJ. If you prefer a style which is more position pressure and a faster pace game, do Judo. Or do both and mix it up at practice.

The only caveat is that not all Judo clubs have strong ground players. You have to be in the right location for that.

Personally I prefer Judo because I find throwing to be more satisfying, and I don't think you need to be better than a blue belt for self defense.
 
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Average judo bb = new blue belt in BJj at best. Period.
 
Thanks for some insightful replies (and a good laugh, RJ :icon_lol: )!
 
What if I told you, that those people you mentioned... they do BJJ as well.
No one in MMA is a straight judo player.
 
DatchGuy said:
What if I told you, that those people you mentioned... they do BJJ as well.
No one in MMA is a straight judo player.
Click to expand...

Then I would tell you that I know that and it doesn't matter because it doesn't have much to do with my question.
 
In my experience, Judo guys usually start using strength and muscling techniques. When they eventually learn to use technique instead of brute strength, they have awesome top games.
 
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For MMA, grappling is Freestyle Wrestling for takedowns and BJJ for ground work. This is what the huge majority of the UFC-level fighters train.

Is Judo a bad base for MMA? No and in fact some top guys today had a Judo background.
Is Judo the best base of takedowns for MMA? No. Anyone that tells otherwise is unrealistic. Look how hard is to find a top guy that came from Judo.

"But dude, you can get money competing in Judo. When guys go out of Judo they are like Yoshida, out of his top form..."

This do not explain why the tops do not train Judo regularly in their training schedule.

"But they are mostly american. There is Wrestling and almost no Judo in USA. Back in Pride there were tons of judokas because Japan..."

Anderson Silva, Minotauro, Wandy... In Brazil, if you want to learn takedowns you basically have to go to Judo because there is nearly only 1000 wrestlers in the entire country or something near it. I live in the third biggest town in the country and already searched for months and did not found one single wrestling gym. These guys have black belts in Judo but their camps are full of wrestlers.
 
In general, if you were looking at competition rules (assuming thats what most BJJ/Judo guys train), then Judo guys would have much better stand up and BJJ guys would have much better ground skills. Thats really it, very simple.
 
jclaudevandamme said:
Look how hard is to find a top guy that came from Judo.
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Fedor. Noted for his hip tosses, Russian Judo and Sambo champion. One of the greatest MMA fighters ever.

jclaudevandamme said:
"But dude, you can get money competing in Judo. When guys go out of Judo they are like Yoshida, out of his top form..."

This do not explain why the tops do not train Judo regularly in their training schedule.
Click to expand...

It's true. The truly awesome Judoka care about the Olympic gold medal, not winning MMA matches. Most top Judoka fighting in MMA are past their prime.

It's easier to get decent at wrestling than it is to get decent at Judo. I train both Judo and Freestyle Wrestling in addition to BJJ and in my experience the learning curve is much, much higher in Judo (this isn't a slight against wrestling) - I don't think I hit a forward throw in Judo sparring until I was a good year into practicing it, whereas I was hitting doubles and singles within a couple of weeks of Freestyle Wrestling.

jclaudevandamme said:
"But they are mostly american. There is Wrestling and almost no Judo in USA. Back in Pride there were tons of judokas because Japan..."

Anderson Silva, Minotauro, Wandy... In Brazil, if you want to learn takedowns you basically have to go to Judo because there is nearly only 1000 wrestlers in the entire country or something near it. I live in the third biggest town in the country and already searched for months and did not found one single wrestling gym. These guys have black belts in Judo but their camps are full of wrestlers.
Click to expand...

This is also somewhat true, and again if you're just looking to add a couple of takedowns and TDD to your BJJ or striking-oriented game then Wrestling is the route where you'll reap the rewards quicker.
 
I love how people come here and make the blanket statement that a judo BB equals a BJJ blue belt on the ground. Well really? What does that have to do with MMA?

Let me tell you some BBs I know wouldn't even BE a BJJ blue belt. And some would murder purples, browns and happily hang with BJJ black belts.

When I started BJJ (and I was a newly minted judo BB) there was such a wide discrepancy in who I could handle it made absolutely no sense. There was a purple who I passed and submitted at will. There was a white belt with long legs who triangled me at least 3 times in a 5 minute roll. There were blues I matched well with, blues I struggled with and blues I tapped multiple times. I had parts of my game that were rock solid, other parts with gaping holes (f#cking triangles were my particular kryptonite).

Skill level? I was not even a blue belt. Fighting ability was random until I learned some BJJ basics we didn't need in judo.

In the end - what I may or may not have done in BJJ made NO difference to an MMA situation.

Higher level judo guys train hard. They are undeniably tough - that have to be to survive in this sport. If you think they are not, then you have only faced recreational judoka.
 
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