Educate me please; how does judo stack up against bjj?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Stixx, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. Stixx

    Stixx Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2010
    Messages:
    2,297
    Likes Received:
    704
    With some of the recent additions of elite judo players to the UFC, like Lombard and Rousey, I would like to know how some of you educated grapplers think that judo stacks up against bjj? On the ground, how well would an elite judo artist be able to defend himself versus an elite bjj artist? And how would he be able to handle himself offensively?

    I mostly only know about judo and bjj from what I've been taught through years of being a dedicated MMA fan, and since bjj is a lot more prominent, it's really the judo aspects that I don't know too much about - apart from the bits we've seen from the likes of Fedor, Akiyama, Rousey and Lombard (I've seen a bit of judo in the Olympics as well though). It seems pretty obvious that judo provides for a lot better takedowns/trips/throws, but what about the high-level technical aspects on the ground that bjj is mostly about? Is judo viable here? Any insight on techniques and just general knowledge on both styles and how they stack up against each other would be much appreciated.

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. iama

    iama Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2012
    Messages:
    413
    Likes Received:
    0
    BJJ gives you alot more options from the ground, as you said Judo gives you more standing up.
     
  3. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2003
    Messages:
    8,952
    Likes Received:
    930
    Location:
    Fuchu City, Tokyo
    That's a loaded question.

    It always comes down to the player, but takedowns in Judo are extremely grip dependent. You can't be a high level judoka without using them constantly.

    You can be a very experienced BJJer and use no grips at all. That means the transition to a nogi environment can be much smoother.

    AND, most BJJers roll without the gi occasionally. It is extremely rare for a judoka to randori/spar without the gi. That makes transitions to MMA slightly tougher.

    Than there is the ground aspect. BJJ was designed for what we call MMA even though hordes of people will pretend its not.

    BJJ develops the instinct to mount, take the back and pass guard. Not to mention defend subs indefinitely. Another advantage to BJJ. Judoka can sometimes have very good clinch work in MMA and are guaranteed to have good balance standing, they have to work other aspects that BJJers already have. Success will come down to which fighters can acclimatize to getting punched in the face and neither grappling art really prepares you for it.

    My last point. You need to be tough to survive an MMA fight against a skilled fighter and you can get very high in BJJ without being tough. Judoka are thrown into the Earth repeatedly for years. Throwing someone is one of the most grueling activities you can do. The toughness judo gives you is a real advantage.
     
  4. chim55

    chim55 White Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2010
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dave Camarillos hybrid Guerella Ju Jistu combines them both.

    That is where its at
     
  5. seatea

    seatea Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,856
    Likes Received:
    118
    The way the judo rules function can allow even elite level judoka to get away with somewhat lacklustre ground work. However, some judoka buck this trend and are known for it; Neil Adams, Canto, Kaori Matsumoto and Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki are excellent at ne-waza.

    A rule of thumb to explain the strengths and weaknesses of each art: BJJ - 80% ground, 20% standing. Judo - 80% standing, 20% ground work.
     
  6. RJ Green

    RJ Green Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,620
    Likes Received:
    2,497
    Location:
    Armbar, Iowa
    Standing, the judo guy should have the advantage of being able to take the bjj guy to the mat at will. It depends from there. If the bjj guy remains relatively unscathed it comes down to what position he landed in. Judo guys smother and stay tight, and the subs come fast. They keep base really well. Guard gets problematic, and comes down to whether the judo guy treats groundwork as an opportunity or a nuisance. If judo guy gets swept or gets his back taken, its probably over. Bjj guy is patient, methodical, and sure as hell doesn't want to stand back up.

    Its fair to assume judo guy throws better and bjj guy is more crafty on the ground, so it's the transition between those two where the magic happens, and what makes or breaks it for either guy.

    But it really comes down to the player. A lot of bjj guys cross train and have top heavy games, and a lot of judo guys have vicious ground games. There's also the leg lock factor, which judo guy won't know shit about unless he cross trains.

    Bjj rage will tell you bjj wins because it's the coolest, because he like totally tapped a two stripe white belt who said he was a judo black belt one time.
    Some of the judo guys will be too proud to admit the bjj guy has a better shot on the groun, then something about how it depends of the match is on concrete or igneous rock or aids needles or what's ever.
    The wrestlers will be butthurt they aren't included in the conversation, and tell you you're a pussy and dont do enough conditioning and that they're hungry.
    Oleg ratkawhatever will be in here to tell you sambo is the best, and even though you can count the number of american sambo gyms on one hand, you should train sambo because he trains sambo and that's pretty much all he ever posts

    then the next ten or so pages are gonna be some version of 'nuhuh' and 'yuhuh' and bullshit irrelevant highlight videos and a few white/orange belts repeating almost verbatim everything weve already said ad nauseum, a few people will reply with such flagrant disregard for english youll simultaneously wonder how they manage to run a computer and lose all faith in western education, Richard will post something real creepy, someone shills some upcoming seminar or fucking DVD and then I'll be an ass and post a meme or esoteric pop culture reference because im am ass and then one of the 10th planet guys will say blah blah rubber guard and then we'll hear even more anecdotes about one time during practice from some random ass three stripe white belts.

    And then finally everyone will agree that both dudes should have just cross trained in each art and that's always the best way. Except Oleg, who will still insist sambo is superior because mother Russia.

    And its all the same fucking thing.
     
  7. ILikeDogging

    ILikeDogging Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    712
    Likes Received:
    3
    On the ground? The average black belt is not even a BJJ blue belt from my experience rolling with judo black belts. The done thing is to go straight to blue but I don't think they are blue belt level. Their defence is generally a lot better then their offence. In judo stand up they are going to destroy you but some do struggle when the rules are less restrictive from what i've seen (again I'm talking the average judo black belt). Lombard Rousey etc. would throw 95% of BJJ guys on their head and then armbar them when they're semi conscious.

    That said there are guys who dedicate a lot of time to newaza and probably stack up a lot better. But in all honestly I think the majority of the ground game displayed by judoka is what they have taken from training BJJ or training a shit ton of newaza with MMA in mind.
     
  8. seatea

    seatea Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,856
    Likes Received:
    118
    [​IMG]
     
  9. RJ Green

    RJ Green Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,620
    Likes Received:
    2,497
    Location:
    Armbar, Iowa
    I stopped using calendars. I keep track of time by how often this topic comes up on F12.
     
  10. loyalyolayal

    loyalyolayal Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2010
    Messages:
    29,694
    Likes Received:
    53,814
    2 words:


    lugwrench
     
  11. Funkoar

    Funkoar Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2011
    Messages:
    1,249
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow, you're good. What colour am I thinking of?
     
  12. sh1tehawke

    sh1tehawke Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,420
    Likes Received:
    1,131
    [​IMG]

    great post.
     
  13. chim55

    chim55 White Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2010
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dave Camarillos hybrid Guerella Ju Jistu combines them both.

    That is where its at
     
  14. RJ Green

    RJ Green Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,620
    Likes Received:
    2,497
    Location:
    Armbar, Iowa
    coleslaw.
     
  15. chim55

    chim55 White Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2010
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    0
    shit...posted this twice.

    essentially.....cross training, yeah
     
  16. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2004
    Messages:
    32,493
    Likes Received:
    562
    Location:
    NY
    There is a broad variation among Judo practitioners on how good they are on the ground. Some high level guys are very good on the ground, some not so much. Kind of like how some BJJ guys have solid takedowns and some couldn't tackle a child. I think the ones who have made the best transition to MMA either had good ground games to begin with, or worked on it heavily for the transition. Many Judo competitors who enter MMA start training BJJ for their fights, and I think that says something. You mentioned Lombard and Rousey. Hector now has a BB in BJJ as well (though I doubt he uses it), and Rousey trains with a lot of BJJ guys as well (though she undoubtedly perfected her armbar while she was doing Judo).

    As for the differences on the ground, I'll say this. Not that Judo is less technical on the ground, but it tends to be more limited. A high level Judoka will likely be very good at a few things on the ground (i.e. pinning, a certain armbar, gi chokes, whatever). A high level BJJ practitioner will come to the dance with a much broader skill set on the ground, able to work with more positions and more submissions to an equally high or higher level. Of course these are just generalizations, and it's due mostly to the rule differences. Judo ground work has a time limit. You need to submit or achieve a pinning position quickly or you get stood up. BJJ will focus more on gradual positional advancement and then a sub. There also tends to be more transitional ground work in BJJ because of the extended time and the fact that it takes place mostly on the ground.

    So I won't say how one "stacks up" against the other, but I'll say that's how they are different.
     
  17. pheonix5

    pheonix5 Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,776
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Dagobah
    "To me totality is very important. Many styles claim totality. They say that they can cope with all types of attacks; that their structures cover all the possible lines and angles, and are capable of retaliation from all angles and lines. If this is true, then how did all the different styles come about? If they are in totality, why do some use only the straight lines, others the round lines. To me a system that clings to one small aspect of combat is actually in bondage."

    Bruce Lee


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  18. ArTofF16hT1ng

    ArTofF16hT1ng Bånned Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2001
    Messages:
    12,606
    Likes Received:
    368
    Location:
    Beijing, China
    RJ callin' me out by name and all. I don't post creepy stuff.
     
  19. Yozigi

    Yozigi ChulCheck

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2003
    Messages:
    824
    Likes Received:
    1
    Thank you Calibur and RJ Green. This must be stickied.
     
  20. seatea

    seatea Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,856
    Likes Received:
    118
    [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.