Does Sambo always beat BJJ?

[Russky]

So the pure sambo guy has little to no experience passing guard and dealing with the triangle

This is true in my experience in fighting sambo guys. They do not have any experience with closed guard (banned in sambo) and get confused. The do not have problems attacking and passing open guard.

However, you have to realize that fight is not starting from knees. Like BJJ guys excel at guard attacks Sambo guys are best at taking down with transitioning into submission. BJJ guy would have to start his game from his arm already in armlock, or his ankle caught. Unless he drops to his butt before getting the grip, of course.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Passguards in sambo, judo and wrestling:

 

[BJJ_Rage]

...which is basically BJJ

yeah, thats why adcc penalties guard pulls...

the mere fact that adcc penalties guard pulls already makes the tournament bias towards stand up styles.

 

[jack36767]

yeah, thats why adcc penalties guard pulls...

the mere fact that adcc penalties guard pulls already makes the tournament bias towards stand up styles.

Which you love to complain about lol. If they actually called stalling.. and didn't have the obnoxiously long overtimes guys like sanchez wouldn't win

 

[Human Bass]

So again, the only advantage BJJ has is within its own style.
Sambo guys can compete and win in judo, wrestling and vice versa.
BJJ guys can't go outside of their own style and instead, prefer challenging other styles to compete under BJJ rule set.
Let me give you an idea- I am organizing an event next month- a tournament, where 8 guys will compete in 3 different rule sets, winning points for their placement in the tournament.
Disciplines are BJJ, sambo and combat wrestling.
Winner is the player who got most points in all 3.
If I was to make it BJJ, freestyle wrestling, judo and sambo tournament, what do you reckon are the chances of a BJJ player to win?

Because the other styles just scratches the surface of the ground game compared to bjj. They tend to end where bjj sees as the beginning of the fun. I love takedowns and yeah, most bjjers are lacking in that departamet, although many guys have a great game, outwtrestling someone like Buchecha or Galvão wont be easy for anyone. But worse than lame takedowns is to see Rustam or Khabib not being able to do much on the ground after some great takedowns. I remember a fight where Rustam tried two or three times to RNC a guy without any hooks, a very rustic and lame RNC. They could become much more effective fighters by learning the stuff that is exclusive to bjj like Faber, Weidman and Jones did.

So, I read TS question as "in a fight were guys want to really hurt each other, which style giver better tools?". Sambo guy probably gets the TD, and after that is bjj territory. In case the bjj guy manages to get the TD, Sambo guy will probably expose his back as a nice gift to the bjj guy.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Because the other styles just scratches the surface of the ground game compared to bjj. They tend to end where bjj sees as the beginning of the fun. I love takedowns and yeah, most bjjers are lacking in that departamet, although many guys have a great game, outwtrestling someone like Buchecha or Galvão wont be easy for anyone. But worse than lame takedowns is to see Rustam or Khabib not being able to do much on the ground after some great takedowns. I remember a fight where Rustam tried two or three times to RNC a guy without any hooks, a very rustic and lame RNC. They could become much more effective fighters by learning the stuff that is exclusive to bjj like Faber, Weidman and Jones did.

So, I read TS question as "in a fight were guys want to really hurt each other, which style giver better tools?". Sambo guy probably gets the TD, and after that is bjj territory. In case the bjj guy manages to get the TD, Sambo guy will probably expose his back as a nice gift to the bjj guy.

Bullshit.
Rustam stopped a guy with several suplexes, which on a hard surface will be done with one takedown only.
There is a reason, why high amplitude throws are scored as ippon or 5 points in the olympic grappling sports- because they are fight finishers if in "fight".
As for the ground game- if BJJ is the be all of ground game, please feel free to enter any freestyle, greco or folk style wrestling tournament and win by BJJ ground game, within wrestling rule set (since throws are not scored as ippons in wrestling, you will have a chance to scramble and pin against a wrestler )
BJJ cateres only to BJJ.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Bullshit.
Rustam stopped a guy with several suplexes, which on a hard surface will be done with one takedown only.
There is a reason, why high amplitude throws are scored as ippon or 5 points in the olympic grappling sports- because they are fight finishers if in "fight".
As for the ground game- if BJJ is the be all of ground game, please feel free to enter any freestyle, greco or folk style wrestling tournament and win by BJJ ground game, within wrestling rule set (since throws are not scored as ippons in wrestling, you will have a chance to scramble and pin against a wrestler )
BJJ cateres only to BJJ.

that is ridiculous, youll get pinned in a sec under any of those rules.

 

[jack36767]

Because the other styles just scratches the surface of the ground game compared to bjj. They tend to end where bjj sees as the beginning of the fun. I love takedowns and yeah, most bjjers are lacking in that departamet, although many guys have a great game, outwtrestling someone like Buchecha or Galvão wont be easy for anyone. But worse than lame takedowns is to see Rustam or Khabib not being able to do much on the ground after some great takedowns. I remember a fight where Rustam tried two or three times to RNC a guy without any hooks, a very rustic and lame RNC. They could become much more effective fighters by learning the stuff that is exclusive to bjj like Faber, Weidman and Jones did.

So, I read TS question as "in a fight were guys want to really hurt each other, which style giver better tools?". Sambo guy probably gets the TD, and after that is bjj territory. In case the bjj guy manages to get the TD, Sambo guy will probably expose his back as a nice gift to the bjj guy.

I'm not dissing, I'm stating facts, Galvao and Buchecha are good at stand up grappling by bjj standards. You can be a snob all you want about bjj's "superior ground game" and right in return wrestlers, judukas, and sambo guys could be just as snobby about the less than technical single legs Galvao used against Cyborg at ADCC. I get your overall point and agree with some of it. But bjj guys really really really need to understand that even their better guys would be toyed with by A LOT of medium to high level high school wrestlers much less starters who aren't even ranked.. in any division of college much less division 1.

Like I said, I get your overall point and I'm not talking trash on those guys, they're amazing competitors and work their ass off, but that view of technical deficiencies goes both ways. And Ivanov does have a point, unless the rules favor bjj and extended ground game, bjj guys have been shown... over and over to be at a complete disadvantage when it comes to actually getting the fight to the ground against someone who knows how to not go their.. at a highly technical level

 

[yetanother]

I'm not dissing, I'm stating facts, Galvao and Buchecha are good at stand up grappling by bjj standards.l

Buchecha vs a pretty accomplished judoka.


Extreme athleticism shouldn't be counted out
Rustam Chsiev was giving trouble to high level bjj guys with sub blue belt skills (Obviously he can wrestle but for a long time he had no idea what the heck he was doing on the ground).

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Buchecha vs a pretty accomplished judoka.

... under BJJ rules, against world champ
Please find videos, where BJJ elite enters judo/ sambo/ wrestling worlds and does well...
I can give you a few rare examples, where BJJ elite entered in sambo worlds and lost his first match.

 

[yetanother]

.
I can give you a few rare examples, where BJJ elite entered in sambo worlds and lost his first match.

Any examples of bjj champions fighting sambo worlds?

 

[BajaMaliKnindza]

Sambo ground techniques are rudimentary and very basic compared to BJJ, there is a lot more depth in bjj techniques on the ground specifically. Obviously Sambo guys have much better takedowns however.

Another thing is Sambo doesnt emphasize extended ground work, i think you have like 30-40 seconds to make something happen on the ground then they stand you up again. Not to mention there is a heap of submissions that are illegal in Sambo (like chokes and shit).

Having said that i feel because the Sambo arsenal is so limited, Sambo players become super adept and sharp at those specific techniques that they do use (armbars, kneebars, td's, etc).

Overall i feel BJJ is the much more complete art

 

[jack36767]

Buchecha vs a pretty accomplished judoka.


Extreme athleticism shouldn't be counted out
Rustam Chsiev was giving trouble to high level bjj guys with sub blue belt skills (Obviously he can wrestle but for a long time he had no idea what the heck he was doing on the ground).

Like Ivanov just said, give me the film of Buchecha beating up a high level wrestler of judoka in a wrestling or Judo match. Not bjj rules. And any trouble he did give the wrestlers would be because of freak athleticism and steroids, I'm still willing to bet he would be picked apart. The same way I would expect him to beat up a wrestler on the ground. Don't ignore my point

 

[yetanother]

Like Ivanov just said, give me the film of Buchecha beating up a high level wrestler of judoka in a wrestling or Judo match. Not bjj rules.

Buchecha was beating Leo Leite at standup.
He doesn't train for wrestling competitions so even if he had better takedowns he would get destroyed by some weird wrestling specific ground work.
Having rolled with a greco olympic wrestling medalist I wouldn't be surprised if some decent blue belt outscored him in a bjj tournament.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Any examples of bjj champions fighting sambo worlds?

Yes.
Dan Schon entered the sambo worlds in 2014, Narita, Japan.
Lost in the first match.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Buchecha was beating Leo Leite at standup.
He doesn't train for wrestling competitions so even if he had better takedowns he would get destroyed by some weird wrestling specific ground work.
Having rolled with a greco olympic wrestling medalist I wouldn't be surprised if some decent blue belt outscored him in a bjj tournament.

And then again, a BJJ black belt would get obliterated in Greco Roman at almost any level.
What is "weird rules" for you (as BJJ guy) is weird rules for any wrestler (Quote from my Greco coach from 15 years ago, watching us rolling: "WTF are you still doing on top of him? You pinned him half hour ago!?")

 

[jack36767]

Buchecha was beating Leo Leite at standup.
He doesn't train for wrestling competitions so even if he had better takedowns he would get destroyed by some weird wrestling specific ground work.
Having rolled with a greco olympic wrestling medalist I wouldn't be surprised if some decent blue belt outscored him in a bjj tournament.

Jesus Christ, no one is disputing that a bjj guy would beat a greco-roman guy.. on the fucking ground. I would bet money that guy would destroy you on your feet without breaking a sweat.

So I'll say my point.. again. The same criticism of a Sambo guys or Judukas, or wrestlers groundwork.. from a bjj perspective being incomplete, not-technical/advanced, and simply rudimentary... can be applied in reverse for neutral/stand-up grappling. If Liete was from a country with actually good Judo.. and the match was under Judo rules not bjj rules where you have to worry about pulling guard, and Buchecha wasn't a freak athlete/or was facing an equal athlete, do you really think he would do so well?

You saying Buchecha has elite/high level takedowns.. That's like me saying Johnny Hendricks has good bjj because he submitted someone with a D'arce in MMA that his bjj is advanced and maybe on Buchecha's level.

The point of this is to say, is that even the better bjj guys on their feet are rudimentary and low level compared to even mid level wrestlers, Sambo fighters and Judokas on their feet. The same way bjj guys are vastly more advanced on the ground.. no duh

Ckaa criticized American's (wrestlers) for getting defensive about wrestling groundwork compared to bjj's effectiveness on the ground. Well it is just as valid to criticize the rudimentary level of stand-up grappling bjj guys have. I would be willing to bet money that Buchecha get completely picked apart on his feet against Cormier and Cain, the same way Buchecha destroys them on the mat.

TLDR: You can be just as snobby about bjj guys less than stellar stand-up as you can about other grappling arts less than stellar groundwork

 

[BJJArsenal]

Everyone else is wrong. Sambo always beats BJJ, every time. That's why BJJ has never beaten Sambo unless the Sambo fighter slips.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Are people really having an argument in 2016 over whether or not wrestlers/Judoka/Sambists have better standup than BJJ guys, and BJJ guys are better at submission grappling on the mat? Jesus Christ. Of course the guys who can win matches with only/primarily standup have better standup. Of course the guys who need literally no standup but sick submission grappling skills to win matches will have better submission grappling skills. Everyone is best at what their sport prioritizes. That this is even a discussion is ludicrous.

 

[Human Bass]

Bullshit.
Rustam stopped a guy with several suplexes, which on a hard surface will be done with one takedown only.
There is a reason, why high amplitude throws are scored as ippon or 5 points in the olympic grappling sports- because they are fight finishers if in "fight".
As for the ground game- if BJJ is the be all of ground game, please feel free to enter any freestyle, greco or folk style wrestling tournament and win by BJJ ground game, within wrestling rule set (since throws are not scored as ippons in wrestling, you will have a chance to scramble and pin against a wrestler )
BJJ cateres only to BJJ.

BJJ cateres to any fight or match where the ground game is not serverely limited. For example, Judo has a nice advantage over Sambo in the ground game that at least has the concept of guard, only side control and mount can be considered pinning. Flávio Canto is a great example of judo and bjj combined extremely well. The moment you say "BJJ cateres only to BJJ", you are also saying, even if you don't realize, that BJJ does the ground game in a much higher depth than the other arts. The fact that Rustam had the physicality to doo many suplexes but didn't know what a white belt knows about a RNC is a very interesting example of what art is the most efficient. I love watching Sambo and I believe the groundwork of Sambo is more than fine for self defense against people who knows little, but when it comes to professional fighting, the positional hierarchy is all bjj.