Do the current MMA fanboys realize how great Shogun Rua was?

[nhbfan8080]

Seems like PrideFC is living in some peoples heads rent free even after all these years by having to shit on Shogun.
PrideFC during its peak was THE show for MMA. The events and fighters were better, production quality was much better. UFC during that time had that dark grimy feel with bush league cameras though the link fencing.

Shogun had the bad luck of injuries in his career. Bad arm break in Colman fight, had to take time off and came back with poor cardio. Then his knee got injured and had surgery before his UFC debut. Then his got more surgeries for both his knees which was why he changed his style in the UFC.

Report: "Shogun" Entered UFC 76 Fight With Knee Damage; Out Until Early 2008

Mauricio “Shogun” Rua, a top-ranked light heavyweight who made an unsuccessful Octagon debut against Forrest Griffin this past weekend, entered the fight with ligament damage in his kne…

mmajunkie.usatoday.com

Former UFC champion Mauricio 'Shogun' Rua undergoes (another) knee surgery

Former UFC light heavyweight champion Mauricio Rua has been forced to undergo yet another knee surgery.

mmajunkie.usatoday.com

He came in injured for his UFC debut with Forrest Griffin and looked slower but still managed to dominate Forrest in the early rounds but gassed out in the 3rd and got choked out. But despite this he still headlined fights in the UFC for years and was competitive with the top guys. When he was in healthier shape without severe injuries he flattened Forrest Griffith and Machida both in rematches.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

he's only great unless you're talking to people who want to tear down Jon Jones resume, then Shogun was just a manlet scrub.

 

[Tweak896]

I think people don't like to admit how 2 dimensional the golden age in LHW is. Sure I think LHW today isn't amazing, but the skillsets back then were styles that have fallen out of the meta. I couldn't see Shogun or Wand beating DC in a prime for prime time traveler matchup, it's just there are limits what you can do in the modern era off your back, just BJJ doesn't cut it.

I feel like someone like Chuck even with his rudimentary striking is easier to accept because you can imagine a guy who can't be taken down and able to KO everyone on the feet. This is also glossing over the fact these guys came from a time before USADA in UFC or in Pride where they basically told everyone to do steroids. I would love to see Pride come today and all of a sudden these superhero fighters return along with the golden age, because everyone would see how much PEDs created a golden era of mma.

Don't get me wrong, if Shogun trained today he'd look more like modern fighters with a focus on anti-wrestling and muy thai, but he still exists with a skillset that loses to complete fighters of today.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

I think people don't like to admit how 2 dimensional the golden age in LHW is. Sure I think LHW today isn't amazing, but the skillsets back then were styles that have fallen out of the meta. I couldn't see Shogun or Wand beating DC in a prime for prime time traveler matchup, it's just there are limits what you can do in the modern era off your back, just BJJ doesn't cut it.

I feel like someone like Chuck even with his rudimentary striking is easier to accept because you can imagine a guy who can't be taken down and able to KO everyone on the feet. This is also glossing over the fact these guys came from a time before USADA in UFC or in Pride where they basically told everyone to do steroids. I would love to see Pride come today and all of a sudden these superhero fighters return along with the golden age, because everyone would see how much PEDs created a golden era of mma.

Don't get me wrong, if Shogun trained today he'd look more like modern fighters with a focus on anti-wrestling and muy thai, but he still exists with a skillset that loses to complete fighters of today.

I'm not sure I get the meta comment. I would say modern 205ers fight more like Rua and Silva than they do Daniel Cormier.

It's kinda like you wrote this post in 2015 instead of 2025. Why would you use a retired fighter as an example about how guys in the 2000s weren't that good, and not someone who fights today?

 

[Tweak896]

I'm not sure I get the meta comment. I would say modern 205ers fight more like Rua and Silva than they do Daniel Cormier.

It's kinda like you wrote this post in 2015 instead of 2025. Why would you use a retired fighter as an example about how guys in the 2000s weren't that good, and not someone who fights today?

I'm just picturing all the guys I've seen at LHW in their prime go to a time machine to meet somewhere when I'm ranking LHWs. Also not hating on the style, but want to add some context why these guys are the way they are, most people today forget how often BJJ guys would sweep the wrestler on top of them or armbar/triangle from the bottom. It takes guys like Burns/Maia/Jacare level BJJ to motivate wrestlers not want that smoke now.

But yeah Shogun/Wand matchup with guys like Rountree/Jiri/Hill/Pereira right now, I could see them beating everyone but Pereira standing. LHW is pretty trash today though, so not trying to call it better than not. Still just think guys like Shogun and Wand were pioneers before we had an elaborate mma training infrastructure, but because of the time they did it, it's difficult for me to basically imagine them against modern fighters today being as dominant as they were in the past.

 

[KO Shotz]

Shogun is one of my favorite fighters of all time. An MMA legend & pioneer.

 

[volcom5]

I dislike how a lot of people claim that “prime” Shogun was in 2005 and suddenly he was out of his prime once he entered the UFC and lost to Forrest. I disagree. His 05 run he was on pure talent, the best Shogun Rua has ever looked was in the Machida bouts, that Shogun Rua I would take over all of LHW’s of his generation. Injuries hindered him from ever really hitting his peak, he was well on his way there until injuries. I always found it ridiculous that the PrideFC fan girls resort to “out his prime” one he loss to Forrest. Like Forrest isn’t a World Champion with a great resume.

 

[Rygu]

His prime was in Pride, but he finished Machida when Machida was making everyone he fought look like that was their first MMA fight.

Definitely an all time great.

 

[mkt]

A great fighter and seemingly a great guy... but over blown on Sherdog... can argue top 10 all time P4P but not top 5

Yep. Shogun would match up terribly against Poatan whom he couldn't take down and we know what Jones did to him. Prime Cormier and Rumble beat him as well. In his prime, he's probably a toss-up against a lot of other fighters, but I'm not convinced he'd outbrawl guys like Jiri who were considerably bigger. He might have been out of his prime against Hendo, but Hendo was 11 years older and out of his prime as well. Let's not forget him getting submitted by Chael, either, who was also older and past his prime.

 

[mkt]

His prime was in Pride, but he finished Machida when Machida was making everyone he fought look like that was their first MMA fight.

Definitely an all time great.

True, but some of that comes down to match-ups. Machida absolutely wrecked Rashad Evans, but I can see Evans beating Shogun with a boring wrestling gameplan like he did against Rampage and Thiago Silva.

Pre-Jones, there were a lot of guys who could beat each other and it came down to styles and who was better on a given night--Shogun, Rampage, Machida, Evans, Forrest, Hendo, etc.

 

[mkt]

I think people don't like to admit how 2 dimensional the golden age in LHW is. Sure I think LHW today isn't amazing, but the skillsets back then were styles that have fallen out of the meta. I couldn't see Shogun or Wand beating DC in a prime for prime time traveler matchup, it's just there are limits what you can do in the modern era off your back, just BJJ doesn't cut it.

I feel like someone like Chuck even with his rudimentary striking is easier to accept because you can imagine a guy who can't be taken down and able to KO everyone on the feet. This is also glossing over the fact these guys came from a time before USADA in UFC or in Pride where they basically told everyone to do steroids. I would love to see Pride come today and all of a sudden these superhero fighters return along with the golden age, because everyone would see how much PEDs created a golden era of mma.

Don't get me wrong, if Shogun trained today he'd look more like modern fighters with a focus on anti-wrestling and muy thai, but he still exists with a skillset that loses to complete fighters of today.

I agree. People forget that Wand was finished by Hendo IN PRIDE. Hendo was a great fighter, but he couldn't win either the LHW (close loss to Rampage) or MW (annihilated by Anderson) belts in the UFC. Wand and Shogun were brutal fighters who were good offensively but relied on youth and chin in their primes. Both would be undersized today at 205 and would be at a disadvantage trading blows with guys who come to the cage 25 pounds heavier than they are. Neither had great TDD or anti-wrestling either.

 

[Tweak896]

I agree. People forget that Wand was finished by Hendo IN PRIDE. Hendo was a great fighter, but he couldn't win either the LHW (close loss to Rampage) or MW (annihilated by Anderson) belts in the UFC. Wand and Shogun were brutal fighters who were good offensively but relied on youth and chin in their primes. Both would be undersized today at 205 and would be at a disadvantage trading blows with guys who come to the cage 25 pounds heavier than they are. Neither had great TDD or anti-wrestling either.

That's another good point about size as well. I'm a huge fan of the pride era, it was much more entertaining than the apex cards we had tonight or recently. But eventually we'll have to look back and accept them as a product of their time and part of the evolution of MMA. Already the 1st generation of fighters we have moved past the 1 dimensional aspect of their fighting styles, but the 2 dimensional fighters sometimes still are talked about like they are regarded on the same level as the guys today.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Yep. Shogun would match up terribly against Poatan whom he couldn't take down and we know what Jones did to him. Prime Cormier and Rumble beat him as well. In his prime, he's probably a toss-up against a lot of other fighters, but I'm not convinced he'd outbrawl guys like Jiri who were considerably bigger. He might have been out of his prime against Hendo, but Hendo was 11 years older and out of his prime as well. Let's not forget him getting submitted by Chael, either, who was also older and past his prime.

I'm not sure about Rumble to be honest. If anything Rua has proven to be insanely durable, and is a much more dynamic and faster striker than Rumble.

Hendo is a brawler, so him being able to hang with him would be a massive compliment. 205ers do not beat Hendo by out brawling him. Jiri does not punch harder than Dan Henderson, and Jiri is not significantly bigger than Dan Henderson.

If there was a 195 weight class, Dan Henderson and Jiri would both fight there. What do you mean by Jiri being significantly bigger, Jiri is one of the smaller 205ers.

 

[mkt]

I'm not sure about Rumble to be honest. If anything Rua has proven to be insanely durable, and is a much more dynamic and faster striker than Rumble.

Hendo is a brawler, so him being able to hang with him would be a massive compliment. 205ers do not beat Hendo by out brawling him. Jiri does not punch harder than Dan Henderson, and Jiri is not significantly bigger than Dan Henderson.

If there was a 195 weight class, Dan Henderson and Jiri would both fight there. What do you mean by Jiri being significantly bigger, Jiri is one of the smaller 205ers.

I'm not sure about Rumble to be honest. If anything Rua has proven to be insanely durable, and is a much more dynamic and faster striker than Rumble.

Hendo is a brawler, so him being able to hang with him would be a massive compliment. 205ers do not beat Hendo by out brawling him. Jiri does not punch harder than Dan Henderson, and Jiri is not significantly bigger than Dan Henderson.

If there was a 195 weight class, Dan Henderson and Jiri would both fight there. What do you mean by Jiri being significantly bigger, Jiri is one of the smaller 205ers.

Jiri is 3" taller than Shogun with a 4" reach advantage and visibly has more muscle mass.

As for Rumble, Shogun is definitely not faster. And he did things neither Shogun nor anyone else has done in his short time at UFC LHW.

Thread 'Crazy Stat about Rumble at LHW'

Apr 27, 2024

I posted this elsewhere, but thought it was worth its own thread.

Rumble KO'd Glover, prime Gus, Bader and Little Nog (who was coming off wins over Tito and Rashad) in less than 5 minutes if you count all the fights. You could fit all that in a single round. Put another way, that's 4 KO/TKO's with an average fight length of just over 1 minute. With the possible exception of Little Nog (who was stilll good at the time), they were all very solid/contender-level LHWs.

He also finished Manuwa seconds into the 2nd round.

• mkt
• Replies: 54
• Forum: UFC Discussion

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[Doctor Grudge]

Jiri is 3" taller than Shogun with a 4" reach advantage and visibly has more muscle mass.

As for Rumble, Shogun is definitely not faster. And he did things neither Shogun nor anyone else has done in his short time at UFC LHW.

Thread 'Crazy Stat about Rumble at LHW'

Apr 27, 2024

I posted this elsewhere, but thought it was worth its own thread.

Rumble KO'd Glover, prime Gus, Bader and Little Nog (who was coming off wins over Tito and Rashad) in less than 5 minutes if you count all the fights. You could fit all that in a single round. Put another way, that's 4 KO/TKO's with an average fight length of just over 1 minute. With the possible exception of Little Nog (who was stilll good at the time), they were all very solid/contender-level LHWs.

He also finished Manuwa seconds into the 2nd round.

• mkt
• Replies: 54
• Forum: UFC Discussion

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Yes, Jiri is definitely bigger, but he's not massive from Rua's perspective. Rua has fought many legitimate 205ers. Crocop has a longer reach and is much more muscular than Fedor, but it'd be odd to say he is significantly bigger.

I dont really get the Rumble has done things Shogun hasn't done. You could just as easily say Shogun did things no other LHW has ever done, isn't that why he became famous in the first place? They both did incredible things, just different.

I'm not saying that Shogun would 100% beat Rumble, but Rumble wouldn't be one of the first guys I would pick to beat Shogun. Shogun got his jaw jacked many times and never got KO'd until 2014.

 

[TR1]

That's another good point about size as well. I'm a huge fan of the pride era, it was much more entertaining than the apex cards we had tonight or recently. But eventually we'll have to look back and accept them as a product of their time and part of the evolution of MMA. Already the 1st generation of fighters we have moved past the 1 dimensional aspect of their fighting styles, but the 2 dimensional fighters sometimes still are talked about like they are regarded on the same level as the guys today.

I mean when we have guys like Jiri (who blocks punches with his face), 90000 year old Glover, career-B-tier fighter Jan, never-has-beens like Hill as champs, and an absolutely uninspiring middling of guys like Santos, Smith, Volkan, Krylov, etc filling out the rest of the division......I'm not sure where this talk of anything "evolving" is.

Not to mention the average age of the division used to be in its 20s, and much like HW its crossed into 30s territory a while ago.
Of course in no other sport is average age moving up a sign of improvement, but I guess we can pretend MMA is the one exception.