Do finishes really matter for p4p or goat debate?

[sgtpepper]

No one is trying to intentionally disregard JBJ and GSP by making the point that finishes do matter.

The reality is that it ACTUALLY does matter, it doesn't mean JBJ hasn't had any impressive wins.

JOnes v Gustafsson ended in decision and was an impressive performance by JBJ and an amazing fight.

But saying a fighter dominated his opponent sounds less impressive than a fighter who annihilated his opponents (ex. Silva).

 

[schwe30]

You ever hear a fighter say he wants to go out there and get a 50-45? Fuck no. They want to finish because that's what they train for, and that is the ultimate goal.

And you hear fighters say they hate the guy so much they don't wanna finish him cause they wanna beat him up.

 

[MilesAbove]

Everything should be weighed.... but really the supposed outcome doesn't matter. It is a GOAT cloud. You're either among the GOATs or not. Fedor, GSP, Silva, Wandy, Liddell, Hughes, Penn, and now it appears Jones are on it.

 

[tenniswhiz]

What's more dominant? Cain's UD over JDS or JDS' KO over Cain? Which showed who the better fighter is?

Some would say a win is a win.

And the rules of the sport show that a single moment can erase rounds of dominance.

What was more dominant?
Chael's 4 rounds or Anderson's submission?
Well, considering that Anderson's sub ended the fight immedietely and rendered the previous rounds irrelevent, the finish is more dominant.
Otherwise Chael would have been the champ, having win 4/5 rounds.

 

[schwe30]

Everything should be weighed.... but really the supposed outcome doesn't matter. It is a GOAT cloud. You're either among the GOATs or not. Fedor, GSP, Silva, Wandy, Liddell, Hughes, Penn, and now it appears Jones are on it.

Exactly this. I think everybody accepts that GSP, Silva, and Fedor are the 3 GOATs. Who's the GOAT? Well, that opinion based. I think it makes most sense to look at quality of opponents. And that's GSP. But to me, personally, Fedor is still the GOAT.

 

[HIMBOB]

Performance counts more than anything.

Split decisions arent unanimous decisions. Random Injuries arent finishes.

How they fight and who they fight are my only considerations.

 

[schwe30]

Some would say a win is a win.

And the rules of the sport show that a single moment can erase rounds of dominance.

What was more dominant?
Chael's 4 rounds or Anderson's submission?
Well, considering that Anderson's sub ended the fight immedietely and rendered the previous rounds irrelevent, the finish is more dominant.
Otherwise Chael would have been the champ, having win 4/5 rounds.

True. But people are gonna say the better man didn't win, considering that Chael dominated him for 4 rounds. And you can't honestly call that win dominant.

 

[schwe30]

Performance counts more than anything.

Split decisions arent unanimous decisions. Random Injuries arent finishes.

How they fight and who they fight are my only considerations.

Also, this.

 

[FeloniousMonk]

Yes; it's a mixed martial arts fight, after all...

 

[McDego]

And you hear fighters say they hate the guy so much they don't wanna finish him cause they wanna beat him up.

You get this sometimes, sure. Fighters say all types of shit, but surely you understand the concept of finish > decision. You're just arguing for fanboy's sake. Clearly you like a fighter who's known not to finish and are for some reason playing advocate even though that fighter himself will disagree with you.

As MMA has evolved, there's clearly more guys who fight "smart" or go for decisions. You really can't blame them. Their livelihood is on the line most of the time, and if they can grind it out for 25 minutes, win on points, keep their belt, get more money, keep their job, etc..etc.. etc.. then that's what they're going to do.

This doesn't negate the fact that a finish is more dominant. Do you know the meaning of the word dominant?

 

[schwe30]

You get this sometimes, sure. Fighters say all types of shit, but surely you understand the concept of finish > decision. You're just arguing for fanboy's sake. Clearly you like a fighter who's known not to finish and are for some reason playing advocate even though that fighter himself will disagree with you.

As MMA has evolved, there's clearly more guys who fight "smart" or go for decisions. You really can't blame them. Their livelihood is on the line most of the time, and if they can grind it out for 25 minutes, win on points, keep their belt, get more money, keep their job, etc..etc.. etc.. then that's what they're going to do.

This doesn't negate the fact that a finish is more dominant. Do you know the meaning of the word dominant?

I don't think you do. I think you're arguing for fanboy's sake. I already said Fedor is my GOAT.

But you can't tell me that all finishes are more dominant than decisions. Who was more dominant in their fights? Silva in the first Shael fight or GSP in the Alves fight? Did Trujillo look dominant in the Varner fight? Did Silva in the Stann fight?

 

[cungfu]

It also depends on how you look at MMA. If you just see it as a sport/game, then all that matters is a win. Traditionally, the goal of fighting is to injure/kill your enemy. Fedor and Silva, to a lesser extent, had that kill or be killed mentality.

 

[PorkPiePusher]

no, but dominant decs do.

 

[McDego]

True. But people are gonna say the better man didn't win, considering that Chael dominated him for 4 rounds. And you can't honestly call that win dominant.

The better man didn't win? Can't call that dominant? Chael submitted to him. We went over the definition of submission earlier, remember? It's literally the epitome of dominance, man. By tapping, Chael yielded to Anderson's power/authority. This made every other second of that fight irrelevant.

The big difference here is winning vs beating.

A decision is a win. You didn't BEAT the guy, but you won.

A finish is beating your opponent. You win.... absolutely.

Champ A beats a guy in 2 minutes. Champ B's opponent hangs with him for 25 minutes. Champ B is less dominant. Every time.

Dominant: ruling, governing, or controlling; having or exerting authority or influence

You exert more control, authory, and influence by finishing as you immediately end the fight when you finish. Going to decision means the clock ends the fight, not you.

 

[schwe30]

The better man didn't win? Can't call that dominant? Chael submitted to him. We went over the definition of submission earlier, remember? It's literally the epitome of dominance, man. By tapping, Chael yielded to Anderson's power/authority. This made every other second of that fight irrelevant.

The big difference here is winning vs beating.

A decision is a win. You didn't BEAT the guy, but you won.

A finish is beating your opponent. You win.... absolutely.

Champ A beats a guy in 2 minutes. Champ B's opponent hangs with him for 25 minutes. Champ B is less dominant. Every time.

Dominant: ruling, governing, or controlling; having or exerting authority or influence

You exert more control, authory, and influence by finishing as you immediately end the fight when you finish. Going to decision means the clock ends the fight, not you.

And here's where you and I stop this discussion. You're resorting to technical definitions cause you don't wanna admit that your view is flawed. You can't be that stubborn. Ask anyone else who was dominant in the Silva-Shael fight and see what they say. Wow.

 

[McDego]

I don't think you do. I think you're arguing for fanboy's sake. I already said Fedor is my GOAT.

But you can't tell me that all finishes are more dominant than decisions. Who was more dominant in their fights? Silva in the first Shael fight or GSP in the Alves fight? Did Trujillo look dominant in the Varner fight? Did Silva in the Stann fight?

A legitimate finish is more dominant than a decision. Every single time, by pure definition.

 

[McDego]

And here's where you and I stop this discussion. You're resorting to technical definitions cause you don't wanna admit that your view is flawed. You can't be that stubborn. Ask anyone else who was dominant in the Silva-Shael fight and see what they say. Wow.

Chael hit Silva over 300 times that fight, but submitted to him. There was nothing that Chael could do to make Silva unable to continue.

Who exerted more authority?

 

[schwe30]

Chael hit Silva over 300 times that fight, but submitted to him. There was nothing that Chael could do to make Silva unable to continue.

Who exerted more authority?

Let's consider there are 2 Silvas. Silva A has 20 fights that end in 50-40 UD. Silva B has 20 fights in which he takes 300 shots for 4 and a half rounds and then gets a sub. Which Silva is the better fighter? Which is the more dominant fighter?

 

[DawsonLucas]

The manner of which they win matters more I think.

If you go the Jon Fitch way then it's hard for most people to stomach it.

If it's KO/TKO like Cain or Silva
or
Five round beatdowns and taking your soul like GSP
or
A comibation of TKO/KO and domination like Aldo then it's easy to call them consider them GOAT

 

[spin]

i think they should give a fighter a boost when you have something like a streak of opponents not making it out of the second round.

same thing with a long streak of not losing a round.