Do finishes really matter for p4p or goat debate?

[Irenaeus]

If a term is badly enough defined, anything can be said to matter when discussing it. It's the main reason to both like and dislike any discussion about P4P or goatiness.

 

[pjswmkj]

Ermm..maybe you're new to MMA? But when it comes to all time GOAT discussion 3 names are always brought up; Anderson, Fedor and GSP....

Haha yeah, I think GSP is goat, but Jones will become #1 if he retires undefeated for sure!

 

[pjswmkj]

If a term is badly enough defined, anything can be said to matter when discussing it. It's the main reason to both like and dislike any discussion about P4P or goatiness.

Haha good point. It's like, my pick for p4p/GOAT is actually how i choose to define p4p/GOAT. It's whatever satisfies my needs. But there isn't a centralized, universal agreement for what p4p means!

 

[grimballer]

If we have a similar task at hand n I do mine much quicker than you do yours, wouldn't you agree I'm better than you at that task?

 

[pewpewpew]

What the fuck are you people talking about if finishes matter? Of course it matters.

In basketball or football, the goal is to score more points than your opponent. Nothing is decided until all the minutes are done.

For fighting, you are done when you finish someone. The decision just practically serves as a tie breaker.

Someone that finishes 10 fights is a MUCH more dominate fighter than someone that that wins 10 by decision. Finishes therefore matters for p4p or goat debate... in fact it matters A LOT.

 

[pjswmkj]

If we have a similar task at hand n I do mine much quicker than you do yours, wouldn't you agree I'm better than you at that task?

You are right and wrong, in mma context I think. Any two fighters have the same job of winning their fight, but they do not have the same opponents! I think my toughness argument applies here. MMA so complex!

 

[flat1985]

Finishes specifically do not matter, but how much you dominate does.

A dominating 50-45 is worth as much as a finish just about.

This really.

 

[flat1985]

What the fuck are you people talking about if finishes matter? Of course it matters.

In basketball or football, the goal is to score more points than your opponent. Nothing is decided until all the minutes are done.

For fighting, you are done when you finish someone. The decision just practically serves as a tie breaker.

Someone that finishes 10 fights is a MUCH more dominate fighter than someone that that wins 10 by decision. Finishes therefore matters for p4p or goat debate... in fact it matters A LOT.

How is that the same the aim is to win.

 

[schwe30]

You know what's really funny? All the people in here saying finishes matter are the same people who said Wiedman's win over Silva doesn't count cause it was a "lucky/fluke" KO. That Weidman didn't prove he was a better fighter.

 

[McDego]

If we have a similar task at hand n I do mine much quicker than you do yours, wouldn't you agree I'm better than you at that task?

All of the posters here who disagree with this have likely never fought or competed in any type of combat sport.

The entire point of fighting is to make your opponent unable to continue. Running out of time and getting a decision doesn't accomplish this goal. Regardless of how "dominant" you were in the 15-25 minutes of your unfinished fight, you still didn't finish, you still did not accomplish your goal/purpose.

There is nothing more dominant than a legitimate finish in MMA. It is the epitome of "dominant" and absolutely holds more weight than any decision.

GSP getting 5 wins in 125 minutes can never be more dominant than Anderson, Jones, or Fedor getting more than twice as many wins in the same amount of cage time.

 

[schwe30]

What the fuck are you people talking about if finishes matter? Of course it matters.

In basketball or football, the goal is to score more points than your opponent. Nothing is decided until all the minutes are done.

hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahah That's the SAME goal in combat sports. Holy fuck this is embarrassing.

 

[kennythekoala]

Domination matters, Jones dominated DC and has only looked mortal in 1 fight in his career. IMO he is LEVELS ahead of anyone in the UFC right now.

 

[McDego]

You know what's really funny? All the people in here saying finishes matter are the same people who said Wiedman's win over Silva doesn't count cause it was a "lucky/fluke" KO. That Weidman didn't prove he was a better fighter.

That's more of a situational matter.

Anderson was fucking off and got knocked the fuck out because he was acting like an idiot. Does it count? Absolutely. Was it dominant? Absolutely. Was it because Chris is obviously the better fighter or because Anderson was being a jackass? We don't really know.

A finish is still more dominant than a decision, despite what each individual's opinion on this particular finish is.

 

[xupacabra]

No.

This is a sport, not just bleed contest.

 

[schwe30]

That's more of a situational matter.

Anderson was fucking off and got knocked the fuck out because he was acting like an idiot. Does it count? Absolutely. Was it dominant? Absolutely. Was it because Chris is obviously the better fighter or because Anderson was being a jackass? We don't really know.

Well, considering Weidman was winning every second of the fight and then got the KO, it's pretty hard to say that we don't know who the better fighter was.

A finish is still more dominant than a decision, despite what each individual's opinion on this particular finish is.

But is it really? GSP for example dominated his opponents and there were no questions about who the better fighter truly was.

 

[pewpewpew]

hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahah That's the SAME goal in combat sports. Holy fuck this is embarrassing.

Lol dumbasses.

The goal is to win.... herp derp no shit.

Quality of the win also matters. Finish > UD > Split decision.

We're talking about winning in the context of running for p4p or goat debates. So someone that has more quality wins is going to get put in p4p or goat debate.

Try to remember what we're talking about before you post some uneducated shit. :wink:

 

[McDego]

hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahah That's the SAME goal in combat sports. Holy fuck this is embarrassing.

A football, baseball, basketball, soccer, hockey, or tennis game can't end before the clock is up.

MMA can.

It's not the same. It becomes the same if neither fighter is dominant enough to finish before the clock runs out, hence his comparison to a "tie breaker". Instead of overtime, you get a few incompetent peoples' opinion on who did better throughout the contest. It's done this way for a number of reasons, but to deny a finish being more dominant or holding more weight than a decision is just retarded. There's no "dominant decision of the night bonus", is there?

In the old days, any fight that went to decision was a draw, as it should be. If you can't finish me and I can't finish you, nobody really wins. The goal is to make your opponent unable to continue.

 

[aus101]

All of the posters here who disagree with this have likely never fought or competed in any type of combat sport.

The entire point of fighting is to make your opponent unable to continue. Running out of time and getting a decision doesn't accomplish this goal. Regardless of how "dominant" you were in the 15-25 minutes of your unfinished fight, you still didn't finish, you still did not accomplish your goal/purpose.

There is nothing more dominant than a legitimate finish in MMA. It is the epitome of "dominant" and absolutely holds more weight than any decision.

GSP getting 5 wins in 125 minutes can never be more dominant than Anderson, Jones, or Fedor getting more than twice as many wins in the same amount of cage time.

Those three fighters are all from higher weight classes where it is easier to finish an opponent. If we are talking P4P then surely that should be taken into account? Fedor's best wins were by decision (cro cop and nog). The last man still fighting at LHW who jones finished was back in 2011 (rampage). Silva surely should of finished current WW Maia? Making a huge deal about finishing seems a little strange.

 

[pjswmkj]

All of the posters here who disagree with this have likely never fought or competed in any type of combat sport.

The entire point of fighting is to make your opponent unable to continue. Running out of time and getting a decision doesn't accomplish this goal. Regardless of how "dominant" you were in the 15-25 minutes of your unfinished fight, you still didn't finish, you still did not accomplish your goal/purpose.

There is nothing more dominant than a legitimate finish in MMA. It is the epitome of "dominant" and absolutely holds more weight than any decision.

GSP getting 5 wins in 125 minutes can never be more dominant than Anderson, Jones, or Fedor getting more than twice as many wins in the same amount of cage time.

This is by far the best argument for the position of finishes mattering! I agree, that getting the finish is like hitting an asymptote in domination.

Anderson/jones/fedor having twice the finishes in same amount of given time is a brilliant argument. However, I must ask you, do you think GSP beats these guys if they are equal size? Doesn't it still come down to just winning?

 

[pewpewpew]

A football, baseball, basketball, soccer, hockey, or tennis game can't end before the clock is up.

MMA can.

It's not the same. It becomes the same if neither fighter is dominant enough to finish before the clock runs out, hence his comparison to a "tie breaker". Instead of overtime, you get a few incompetent peoples' opinion on who did better throughout the contest. It's done this way for a number of reasons, but to deny a finish being more dominant or holding more weight than a decision is just retarded. There's no "dominant decision of the night bonus", is there?

In the old days, any fight that went to decision was a draw, as it should be. If you can't finish me and I can't finish you, nobody really wins. The goal is to make your opponent unable to continue.

Yup I've always advocated for no finish = draw. I wish some organization would promote that rule, I think it'll be a real game changer.