Do finishes really matter for p4p or goat debate?

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by pjswmkj, Jan 5, 2015.

  1. pjswmkj

    pjswmkj Green Belt

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    So an interesting thing I thought about was the fact that Jon Jones has not finished his last 4 LHW opponents (disregarding Chael and Vitor). Obviously it's because those last 4 are very big, strong amazingly skilled guys, all fighting in both their prime and their best fight camp ever to prepare for their respective title shots. I think this will continue. Yet, Jones is obviously a finisher, at least still in my eyes. I could never forget the way he destroyed people up to 2011, where he finished Machida in devastating fashion. And he did not have to finish Cormier in order to cement his p4p status - he only had to win! He is simply the best.

    So why was Anderson Silva the best? What exactly makes him better than GSP? Because he's bigger and would probably win at MW? That's not what p4p is about. Because he finishes his opponents? Or was he simply the best fighter in more people's eyes than not.

    In my eyes, I would have never thought of discrediting GSP in any way if it weren't for other's criticisms. Maybe that was just media? An interesting thing to remember is that the majority of men in general are around the 155/170 pound range. There are greater chances of having more freak athletes who can hang with the best. Even though, in theory, it should be easier to dominate at higher weight classes since there is smaller % chance of Jones/Gustafson type guys popping around, you still have to fight more conservatively since the power of the fighters are more dangerous. This means that different weight classes have different ways of fighting, and could support the argument that it is impossible and pointless to determine p4p. But that is a different subject. I thought GSP was p4p best because he is the best in his division in both technique and strength; something that isn't always the case in champions. Jon Jones could continue to fight the way he fights, not finish tough, big dudes, and possibly have boring rounds/fights, yet I doubt he will ever be demoted for not finishing guys.

    My point or conclusion? So many variables, and this is why MMA is the best sport!! It's still open for debate as to whether finishes are important in ranking fighters. I'd like to hear your thoughts!
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
  2. carebear**

    carebear** Purple heart

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    Finishes does not matter, wins does.
    But people uses the finish argument to discredit, GSP and JBJ.
    Anything to make "your" guy look better in the arguments.
     
  3. schwe30

    schwe30 Black Belt

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  4. Da Speeit

    Da Speeit CANCEROUS POSTER Platinum Member

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    Only when separating those at the highest level. Anderson frontkicking Vitor like it was nothing weighs more than GSP beating Shields and looking like shit in the process
     
  5. Non

    Non Touch Butt Champion

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    They do in my opinion.
     
  6. phoenixikki

    phoenixikki Brown Belt

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    Yes, they do. We're talking about fighting here, it isn't racing, tennis or football.
    Finishing the opponent as soon as possibly, with the least effort and in spectacular fashion separates the good from the greatest.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
  7. estranged

    estranged Brown Belt

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    it doesn't hurt
     
  8. AP_RESURRECTION

    AP_RESURRECTION Gold Belt

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    matters to me personally - not saying Anderson is number one bc I don't know the answer but the way both he and Fedor finished their opponents was ridiculous - but Jones and Georges have better strength of schedule - can't say what outweighs what
     
  9. Spearfish CA

    Spearfish CA Silver Belt Platinum Member

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    Not at all, but the p4p/GOAT debate has a lot of inherent bias so people who want to dismiss GSP, for example, will argue it does.
     
  10. FlyingKimurabar

    FlyingKimurabar Silver Belt

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    Finishes specifically do not matter, but how much you dominate does.

    A dominating 50-45 is worth as much as a finish just about.
     
  11. Hans Gercmiov

    Hans Gercmiov Steel Belt

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    Came to post that exact sentence lol.
     
  12. wilKO

    wilKO Green, White & Gold belt

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    Yes. Finishing your opponent is the ultimate sign of dominance and goal of every fighter including GSP.
     
  13. loisestrad

    loisestrad Gold Belt Platinum Member

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    Being the best fighter is what matters, and winning impressively is part of what makes a fighter great, and finishing your opponent is more impressive than not finishing him. So obviously it matters. Does that mean you can't be #1 p4p when not finishing your opponents all the time? No.
     
  14. pjswmkj

    pjswmkj Green Belt

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    But what about the toughness of fighters? That is something never talked about or ranked. Toughness is part of your defense, whether it's from genetics or not.

    Almost finishing a #1 ranked guy in toughness is more impressive than finishing an unranked fighter (unranked in a make-believe toughness-rating).
     
  15. kic**

    kic** Orange Belt

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    I don't know. You could be #1 and win decisions by lay and pray or wall and stall--lame. Finishes matter.
     
  16. BomberMan

    BomberMan Brown Belt

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    Not at all, when you are fighting the elite of your division in every single title defense the chances of finishing your opponent goes way down. Look at GSP's opponents during his title reign, collectively how many times have they been stopped in their careers? When you get to that level, finishes are harder and harder to get. That's why most fans consider Anderson to be number 1 p4p over GSP because he was still getting finishes here and there whereas GSP was 50-45ing all his opponents.

    Edit: IMO GSP ranks over Anderson all time p4p
     
  17. Hotei

    Hotei Brown Belt

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    Of course they do. They are not everything but they matter a lot.
     
  18. muaythaibeast

    muaythaibeast Brown Belt

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    For me no, and the argument against gsp that he didn't finish enough is pretty ridiculous.
    Silva vs Sonnen 1 finished with a finish, GSP vs Fitch didn't, but its pretty clear what was the more impressive performance.
    Both Silva and Fedor finished fights when they were in trouble, and that was part of the aura, whereas GSP just flat out dominated you from start to finish. How you weigh that is down to you, but a complete shut out decision can't really be topped unless you have a Silva vs Griffin type fight.
    I'd put far more weight on your size for the division/level of competition.
     
  19. numskully

    numskully Green Belt

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    "Do finishes really matter for p4p or goat debate?"

    Yes, that is why GSP isn't spoken of.
     
  20. BomberMan

    BomberMan Brown Belt

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    Ermm..maybe you're new to MMA? But when it comes to all time GOAT discussion 3 names are always brought up; Anderson, Fedor and GSP....
     

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