Do finishes really matter for p4p or goat debate?

[McDego]

But is it really? GSP for example dominated his opponents and there were no questions about who the better fighter truly was.

This is true, but he couldn't put them away. Are you implying that GSP vs Fitch was more dominant than GSP vs Sherk?

GSP vs Fitch is probably the best example you can give of a "dominant" decision, yet his win over Sherk was 10x more dominant. Do you disagree?

 

[pewpewpew]

In an alternate reality, GPS won all his fights by KO or submission.

Would you say that this other GPS is more dominate, or would you say they're equal because they've won just as much?

 

[Wayweary]

I think it's a factor but only to be considered in the face of strength of schedule. It's not simply that the one with more finishes is better by any stretch.

 

[INoHespectChael]

Nope, who would want to have 30 finishes when you can have 30 50-45s?

 

[schwe30]

Lol dumbasses.

The goal is to win.... herp derp no shit.

Quality of the win also matters. Finish > UD > Split decision.

We're talking about winning in the context of running for p4p or goat debates. So someone that has more quality wins is going to get put in p4p or goat debate.

Try to remember what we're talking about before you post some uneducated shit. :wink:

Shouldn't the quality of the opponents matter? I mean isn't it easier to get a finish over the #15 guy than the #2? Shouldn't the quality of opponents matter in the context of p4p or goat debates? I mean if it's the quality of win, then Matt Brown is up there in the GOAT rankings. He's got more KO's than Fedor! Also, is a sub better than a KO?

Matt "The Immortal" Brown GOAT!

 

[schwe30]

This is true, but he couldn't put them away. Are you implying that GSP vs Fitch was more dominant than GSP vs Sherk?

GSP vs Fitch is probably the best example you can give of a "dominant" decision, yet his win over Sherk was 10x more dominant. Do you disagree?

Yes. GSP vs Fitch was more dominant than Sherk. To make a #2 guy your bitch for 25 minutes is pretty damn dominant. The finish, while nice, isn't really necessary. I think the quality of opponent is weighed more than a finish. Of course a champ can finish the #15 guy. But what does that prove? That he can finish a mis-matched opponent.

 

[schwe30]

Also, shouldn't losses be taken into account when talking about who's the GOAT? And do losses by KO/sub hold more value?

 

[pewpewpew]

Shouldn't the quality of the opponents matter? I mean isn't it easier to get a finish over the #15 guy than the #2? Shouldn't the quality of opponents matter in the context of p4p or goat debates? I mean if it's the quality of win, then Matt Brown is up there in the GOAT rankings. He's got more KO's than Fedor! Also, is a sub better than a KO?

Matt "The Immortal" Brown GOAT!

That a separate issue from, "Do finishes really matter for p4p or goat debate?"

Your point is talking about, "Do quality of your opponent really matter for p4p or goat debate?".

The only interesting debate is, how do you compare a finish against a "easier" opponent versus a decision against a "harder" opponent? But that's not what people are discussing here.

 

[Irenaeus]

All of the posters here who disagree with this have likely never fought or competed in any type of combat sport.

The entire point of fighting is to make your opponent unable to continue. Running out of time and getting a decision doesn't accomplish this goal. Regardless of how "dominant" you were in the 15-25 minutes of your unfinished fight, you still didn't finish, you still did not accomplish your goal/purpose.

There is nothing more dominant than a legitimate finish in MMA. It is the epitome of "dominant" and absolutely holds more weight than any decision.

GSP getting 5 wins in 125 minutes can never be more dominant than Anderson, Jones, or Fedor getting more than twice as many wins in the same amount of cage time.

I think the problem with this is that people are using "dominant" to discuss two different things. JDS-Cain 1 is a dominant win. He got a devastrating finish. It's a huge win, both in context and when it comes to every part of the fight itself. As an accomplishment, it's positively monstrous.

When it come to analysis instead of merit, however, JDS-Cain 2 is more important, because it provides us with a much stronger source material, and we are able to say more definitely whether it's a repeatable performance.

I'm a little unsure how to put it, but finishes are better, but a dominant and one-sided decision might sometimes be better tools when it comes to speculating on a rematch.

 

[McDego]

Those three fighters are all from higher weight classes where it is easier to finish an opponent. If we are talking P4P then surely that should be taken into account? Fedor's best wins were by decision (cro cop and nog). The last man still fighting at LHW who jones finished was back in 2011 (rampage). Silva surely should of finished current WW Maia? Making a huge deal about finishing seems a little strange.

There's literally hundreds of finishes in lower weight classes. Weight class doesn't equate to easier/harder finishes. Pettis has an 83% finish rate.

You listing off (very few) decision wins by great fighters doesn't make their finishes less dominant. I don't think you understand the concept. They clearly hold more weight.

Scenario: You and I work for the same company. We both have 25 minutes to complete a project. You complete your project in 25 minutes. I complete my project in 3 minutes. You get your promised pay. I get my promised pay, and bonuses. Who was more successful at their assigned task?

 

[schwe30]

That a separate issue from, "Do finishes really matter for p4p or goat debate?"

Your point is talking about, "Do quality of your opponent really matter for p4p or goat debate?".

The only interesting debate is, how do you compare a finish against a "easier" opponent versus a decision against a "harder" opponent? But that's not what people are discussing here.

Can't have one without the other. And for the record, I think quality of opponents > quality of finishes. As it should be. It should be the only thing that matters.

Now if you've got two guys with the same quality of opposition, and one is went to decisions and one got KO's, then yes, I can see why people would say finishes matter.

 

[McDego]

Yes. GSP vs Fitch was more dominant than Sherk. To make a #2 guy your bitch for 25 minutes is pretty damn dominant. The finish, while nice, isn't really necessary. I think the quality of opponent is weighed more than a finish. Of course a champ can finish the #15 guy. But what does that prove? That he can finish a mis-matched opponent.

He made Sherk his bitch by making him quit. The very WORD should help you understand this.

Submissionthe action or fact of accepting or yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person.

He couldn't make Fitch submit. He couldn't make Fitch unable to continue. It is nowhere near as dominant. Finishes are the epitome of dominance in MMA.

Yes, there are circumstances such as injuries, fouls, DQ's, and the like which can get a finish, but not truly be dominant. That's just how shit goes. However, you are delusional if you think any decision can be more dominant than any legitimate finish.

 

[The Karate Man]

Finishes undeniably play a role in a fighter's dominance. It's what made Anderson so fun to watch; you knew whoever stepped across from him was getting assblasted.

 

[cungfu]

Yes. All fighters would want to finish, if they could. That is why Fedor is mentioned by most fighters, not average joes, as the greatest. Anderson is second most mentioned, and nobody else is even close after that.

 

[schwe30]

He made Sherk his bitch by making him quit. The very WORD should help you understand this.

Submissionthe action or fact of accepting or yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person.

He couldn't make Fitch submit. He couldn't make Fitch unable to continue. It is nowhere near as dominant. Finishes are the epitome of dominance in MMA.

Yes, there are circumstances such as injuries, fouls, DQ's, and the like which can get a finish, but not truly be dominant. That's just how shit goes. However, you are delusional if you think any decision can be more dominant than any legitimate finish.

What's more dominant? Cain's UD over JDS or JDS' KO over Cain? Which showed who the better fighter is?

 

[McDego]

Can't have one without the other. And for the record, I think quality of opponents > quality of finishes. As it should be. It should be the only thing that matters.

Now if you've got two guys with the same quality of opposition, and one is went to decisions and one got KO's, then yes, I can see why people would say finishes matter.

GSP fans always try to use the quality of opponents argument when discussing finishes. Quality of opposition is a highly subjective topic, which is very opinion based. There's nothing opinionated about one guy knocking everybody out or submitting them, and another guy going to decision every time. It's undeniable and absolute.

GSP himself, (and ANY other professional fighter) will tell you that finishes are more dominant. It's the entire purpose of fighting. Decisions were implemented to save time and prevent constant draws.

You ever hear a fighter say he wants to go out there and get a 50-45? Fuck no. They want to finish because that's what they train for, and that is the ultimate goal.

 

[McDego]

What's more dominant? Cain's UD over JDS or JDS' KO over Cain? Which showed who the better fighter is?

What's more dominant? Cain's UD over JDS or Cain's TKO over JDS?

 

[schwe30]

GSP fans always try to use the quality of opponents argument when discussing finishes. Quality of opposition is a highly subjective topic, which is very opinion based. There's nothing opinionated about one guy knocking everybody out or submitting them, and another guy going to decision every time. It's undeniable and absolute.

GSP himself, (and ANY other professional fighter) will tell you that finishes are more dominant. It's the entire purpose of fighting. Decisions were implemented to save time and prevent constant draws.

You ever hear a fighter say he wants to go out there and get a 50-45? Fuck no. They want to finish because that's what they train for, and that is the ultimate goal.

Hendricks said he went out there and paced himself for a decision cause he knew he couldn't Condit. Lot's of fighters go out there and go for decisions. They only say they want KO's cause they think that's what the fans wanna hear.

As for your first point, no, it's still opinionated.

 

[tenniswhiz]

If finishes matter to you, then that's up to you.

If winning rounds matters to you, that's up to you.

If taking other fighters down matters to you, if not being taken down matters, or anything else, it's up to you.

What is stupid is to claim finishes don't matter, and then to discredit a finisher because he 'was losing before he win', and then to claim your guy is better because he wins more rounds.

 

[schwe30]

What's more dominant? Cain's UD over JDS or Cain's TKO over JDS?

Cain's TKO. Now answer my question.