Differences between Russian and Japanese Judo?

[Shadowdean]

Ugh, I did not intend to start a flame war...

 

[Thalion]

I dont want say that Strenght is useless in judo.
Strenght is part of Judo, But JU has to be a more relevant part of it.
Look at Kimura, he was strong , fast and phisically trained as hard as the modern Judoka or even better.
I say that today strenght is used to compensate lack of timing or technique. Judo has become more "Muscolar" then in past. It's easy to see 2 athletes stalling in a clinch pushing each other. That's (to me) is not a good judo.

Nowaday referee gave Ippon to throws that arent "perfect". To take an Ippon ur throws have to be fast, power and with controll.
If I do a combination of counters like Seoi Nage to Kata o toshi, slamming Uke on his neck falling on him, they give me an ippon. I don't like that.

To make and examples. Look at a Ride of motorbike. With 2 talented opponents.
One has a technical perfect drive, very clear without making any mistakes.
The other one has a dirty drive, taking more risk riding the bike more phisically.
Both are champion and both are able to win. Someoen like most the first someone got excited by the second. But their drive are different.

Same for Judo.

Russian = more pragmatic and muscolar
Japanese = more aesthetic and technical

To see ? I prefer Japanese. To do? probably russian would be easier to me to take in

 

[sha]

I personally think that a lot of this "wrestling/sambo/russian judo is more about brute strength that classical judo" is simply not true.

Some martial arts are all about not using any strength. Aikido for example, I can't imagine lifting weights would improve your aikido. Maybe original japanese judo was like this. Other arts try to develop strength through a conditioning program, wrestling is one of those.
This doesn't mean one is better than the other, just that their philosophies are different.

Nobody ever said wrestling is only strength and no technique. But it seems to me that the techniques are designed for maximum effect, not minimum strength use.

 

[Darwinist]

I dont want say that Strenght is useless in judo.
Strenght is part of Judo, But JU has to be a more relevant part of it.
Look at Kimura, he was strong , fast and phisically trained as hard as the modern Judoka or even better.
I say that today strenght is used to compensate lack of timing or technique. Judo has become more "Muscolar" then in past. It's easy to see 2 athletes stalling in a clinch pushing each other. That's (to me) is not a good judo.

Nowaday referee gave Ippon to throws that arent "perfect". To take an Ippon ur throws have to be fast, power and with controll.
If I do a combination of counters like Seoi Nage to Kata o toshi, slamming Uke on his neck falling on him, they give me an ippon. I don't like that.

To make and examples. Look at a Ride of motorbike. With 2 talented opponents.
One has a technical perfect drive, very clear without making any mistakes.
The other one has a dirty drive, taking more risk riding the bike more phisically.
Both are champion and both are able to win. Someoen like most the first someone got excited by the second. But their drive are different.

Same for Judo.

Russian = more pragmatic and muscolar
Japanese = more aesthetic and technical

To see ? I prefer Japanese. To do? probably russian would be easier to me to take in

If you think that referees give out Ippon

 

[Deleted member 3729]

One issue I think is a problem for Russian Judo is that it was devised to win in sport Judo at the elite level. It is somewhat assumed those using it would have the physical attributes necessary to compete at the top level. It may not be necessarily as useful as Japanese style Judo would be for the average 45 year old who may want to keep in shape more than anything else.

Sociologically, I find the difference in the approaches that developed in Materialist, Atheist Soviet Russia vs Spiritual Japan really intriguing, but that's another thread.

 

[Q mystic]

I sometimes wonder if it (changes)had to do with their size. Russians are generally bigger and when I watch judo the smaller weights seem to be more technical and larger guys more power and forcing due to less agility.

 

[Shadowdean]

Well, I know wrestling has a much longer history in Russia than Japan, so its natural that the "always working" mentality of wrestling - always pushing forward, grinding away, is more prevalent in Russian Judo than Japanese judo. THe Russians do like to grab the belt more with their throws (already stated? I observed this during my last Judo practice where we have some russian and eastern european judoka)..I also think they tend to be a bit more liniar in their exicution.

 

[Noskill]

Technique is what works.
Good technique is what works often.

What is the technique a pot-maker needs? Whatever art allows him to make pots. What is the technique a judo player needs? Whatever technique allows him to score Ippon.

Who cares if the pot-maker sings and dances while making his pots? That might make the sight more enjoyable, but it has nothing to do with his pot-making technique.

Problem is: traditional guys think there are only as much techniques in Judo as there are entries in the GO-KYO. Well here is one thought that should make you feel awesome, Judo mystics: There are as many Judo techniques as there are stars in the universe. The GO_KYO is just a list of names really. If a technique doesn't fit one category, it doesn't make it less 'technical'.

 

[Gratification]

Judo encompasses a whole lot. All the Japanese got my head spinning.

What this thread is really about is how Judo should be taught. Most people who aren't too proud will say that it should be taught in the most effective and the most competitive way possible. If there is anybody with hangups on using the most effective way, they should make a new sport.

 

[Thalion]

If Judo has to be taught in most effective and competitive way, Japanese still got it. 'cause their judo IS the most effective, Look at Olympics game.

At Sidney 2000 : Japan 4G -2S -2B , France 2G-2S-2B.. then China, Cuba , Italy ...
Russia only 11th with 1S -3B

At Athens 2004: Japan 8G - 2S , Cuba 1S - 5B ... then China and Russia 4th 2S-3B

Russian and Est Europian are very good in Judo, but not better then French, Cuban and Chinese . Japanese are still the best overall.

 

[Q mystic]

If Judo has to be taught in most effective and competitive way, Japanese still got it. 'cause their judo IS the most effective, Look at Olympics game.

At Sidney 2000 : Japan 4G -2S -2B , France 2G-2S-2B.. then China, Cuba , Italy ...
Russia only 11th with 1S -3B

At Athens 2004: Japan 8G - 2S , Cuba 1S - 5B ... then China and Russia 4th 2S-3B

Russian and Est Europian are very good in Judo, but not better then French, Cuban and Chinese . Japanese are still the best overall.

But the old USSR did better than Russia, which may show that amount of judoka in the country may help make a difference.

 

[Deleted member 3729]

If Judo has to be taught in most effective and competitive way, Japanese still got it. 'cause their judo IS the most effective, Look at Olympics game.

At Sidney 2000 : Japan 4G -2S -2B , France 2G-2S-2B.. then China, Cuba , Italy ...
Russia only 11th with 1S -3B

At Athens 2004: Japan 8G - 2S , Cuba 1S - 5B ... then China and Russia 4th 2S-3B

Russian and Est Europian are very good in Judo, but not better then French, Cuban and Chinese . Japanese are still the best overall.

I think the interesting thing to look at would be medals per participant in the countries. Also stylistically the French and Cuban are quite close to the Russians. When people speak of Russian Judo they could just as easily be talking of European Judo.

 

[tsneds]

Wrestling is not about strength. Wrestling is as much about technique as Judo. If this wasn't the case, all wrestlers would need to do to be good at their sports is to lift weights. But they practice as much technique as we do in Judo.

You think it is only strength because you have never wrestled.

I agree (I live in Japan and train Judo here)this film YouTube - ?? ?(1/5)???????????????? starting at the 4:50 mark they discuss the difference between Japanese and European Judo and talk about the problems that the European gripping tactics give many of the Japanese then starting at the 8:40 mark a Chidaoba match,which is a native Georgian style of wrestling,is shown.

 

[knoxpk]

What IS cuban Judo like?
Power? Wrestling based td's?
Mat work heavy?

Thanks in advance.

 

[judofarmerbob]

pickups

 

[Kyuktooki]

If Judo has to be taught in most effective and competitive way, Japanese still got it. 'cause their judo IS the most effective, Look at Olympics game.

At Sidney 2000 : Japan 4G -2S -2B , France 2G-2S-2B.. then China, Cuba , Italy ...
Russia only 11th with 1S -3B

At Athens 2004: Japan 8G - 2S , Cuba 1S - 5B ... then China and Russia 4th 2S-3B

Russian and Est Europian are very good in Judo, but not better then French, Cuban and Chinese . Japanese are still the best overall.

Its hard to compare the effectiveness of European Judo to Japanese Judo based on medals alone. Japan has more people practicing the sport than any other country in the world. Japan has numerous (compared to anywhere else) well funded Judo programs and teaches the sport to kids at an early age. Judo is taught in P.E. class. Judo is even a collegiate sport there.

We expect Brazilians to sweep most high level not simply because they have better technique or are stronger than everyone else in the world but because there are far more practitioners there whom have far more experience than one would find elsewhere. Considering how recently BJJ was brought to North America I am surprised America produces high level players at all (some might debate that but I would say we do have a few).

 

[blanko]

If Judo has to be taught in most effective and competitive way, Japanese still got it. 'cause their judo IS the most effective, Look at Olympics game.

At Sidney 2000 : Japan 4G -2S -2B , France 2G-2S-2B.. then China, Cuba , Italy ...
Russia only 11th with 1S -3B

At Athens 2004: Japan 8G - 2S , Cuba 1S - 5B ... then China and Russia 4th 2S-3B

Russian and Est Europian are very good in Judo, but not better then French, Cuban and Chinese . Japanese are still the best overall.

you mention france, cuba and china but you don't mention korea
???


Anyway.. Russian judo is influenced heavily by sambo WHICH was/is influenced heavily buy the various folk wrestling styles of the soviet republic along with classical wrestling.

 

[blanko]

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one could argue that russian/european judo is a much better fit for bjj competion than traditional japenese style judo. Look at their stances... it's just like a bjj stance. That's why i state/stated that sambo/european judo would help more for a bjj practioner than traditional japese judo.

 

[Jaxx]

Train Sambo!!!

 

[masterfighter]

Basic differences are that russian judokas tend to stand with a bent over/lower posture and use alot of pick-ups and leg grabs.
Japanese judo has an upright stance and tends to focus more on techniques such as uchimata and others that are executed from a standing straight position and rely more on breaking balance than explosiveness.

It was also russian judo that introduced flying armlocks to international judo. The "russian grip" is where you reach over your opponents back and grab his belt with one hand. This is common in russian judo and allows for many pickups such as the khabarelli (spelling?)